Women Teaching

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Homer
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Women Teaching

Post by Homer » Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:06 am

Hi Steve (or anyone who would like to comment),

I had thought that the passage in 1 Timothy 2:12 where Paul said "I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over a man, but to be in silence" (KJV), even if understood in the strictest sense, did not restrict a woman from teaching other women, as Paul in Titus 2:3-5 seems to indicate:

Titus 2:3-5 (King James Version)

3. The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

4. That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,

5. To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.


Here Paul appears to instruct the older women to teach the younger, but he does not use the same Greek word didasko that he used in forbidding women from teaching men in Timothy (if that is what he meant). In the passage in Titus, the Greek word in v. 13 translated "teachers" is Kalodidaskalos which has the following meaning:

Strong's Number: 2567 kalodida/skalov
Original Word Word Origin
kalodida/skalov from (2570) and (1320)
Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
Kalodidaskalos kal-od-id-as'-kal-os
Parts of Speech TDNT
Adjective 2:159,161
Definition
teaching that which is good, a teacher of goodness


In the context, it seems that the teaching Paul had in mind is as stated in Titus 2:4, which is not exactly expository in nature, but is in regard to their general behavior, and could even include teaching by example. And in v. 4 the word "teach" is the Greek word sophronizo which does not appear to mean "teach" in the expository sense either, but means "admonish", etc., as in later translations:

Strong's Number: 4994 swfroniðzw
Original Word Word Origin
swfroniðzw from (4998)
Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
Sophronizo so-fron-id'-zo
Parts of Speech TDNT
Verb 7:1104,1150
Definition
restore one to his senses
to moderate, control, curb, disciple
to hold one to his duty
to admonish, to exhort earnestly


Are there any New Testament texts which support public expository teaching by women, even of other women?

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Danny
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Re: Women Teaching

Post by Danny » Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:39 am

A thought: If expository teaching is defined as "a form of preaching that expounds upon the meaning of a particular text or passage of Scripture" (per Wikipedia), then very few women in New Testament times would have had the training in the Hebrew Scriptures that would have abled them to engage in public expository teaching.

It does not necessarily follow, however, that women were forevermore exluded from teaching in public. In fact, there have been outstanding female teachers and theologians throughout history; moreso now than ever before.
My blog: http://dannycoleman.blogspot.com

“Both read the Bible day and night, But thou read’st black where I read white.”
-- William Blake

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Homer
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Re: Women Teaching

Post by Homer » Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:14 am

Hi Danny,

Thanks for your reply.

I am not an elder at the present, but was an elder for over twenty years at a church where women taught in classes of mixed gender. I have never attempted an in depth study of this issue before and just accepted the superficial, pat answers that are usually given. Aside from the question of teaching authoritatively, my question is where is there authorization in the scriptures for them to be teachers in the Church? Paul's statement seems to forbid it:

1 Timothy 2:12 (New King James Version)
12. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.


It is said that it is a good practice to interpret the ambiguous or less plain texts by the plainer ones. It seems that in determining what Paul may have meant the opposite is done. Where is there anything that would explain what Paul meant that is close to being as straight forward as Paul's statement? Paul does not base his reason on lack of education, culture, or similar things, but bases his reason on the nature of men and women, going back to the fall of Adam and Eve. It seems to me any answer must take Paul's reasoning into consideration.

God bless, Homer

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Danny
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Re: Women Teaching

Post by Danny » Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:40 am

Hi Homer,

It's nice to be in dialog with you again. You asked:
"Where is there anything that would explain what Paul meant that is close to being as straight forward as Paul's statement?"
I took a stab at it here: http://www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=2869

-Danny
My blog: http://dannycoleman.blogspot.com

“Both read the Bible day and night, But thou read’st black where I read white.”
-- William Blake

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Michelle
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Re: Women Teaching

Post by Michelle » Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:46 am

Hi Homer,

I'll probably follow this discussion closely because it looks like it could get interesting, but I don't really have any arguments or scriptures for you. I do have a question for you before you get too far into it. Would you define clearly what would and what would not be "expository teaching"?

I'm imagining an older woman with a group of younger women exhorting them to submit to their husbands (a good thing, indeed) when one of the younger ones pipes up and asks, "Why?" and the older woman blushing and having to say, "I can't tell you. See me in private, or ask a man." Also, what are you going to do? Spy out every women's ministry gathering to make sure no teaching is going on? (Not that much ever does in my experience, so perhaps we're safe there.)

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glow
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Re: Women Teaching

Post by glow » Sat Mar 13, 2010 3:15 pm

Hi,

I have always believed the "do not let woman teach over men", applied to scripture readings etc. of the time because woman were not taught the scripture of the day and from the land.
So how could they teach with knowledge or authority? They could not!

They had a definite social position they adopted from the prior creation of man of "after" sin entering the world..

Yes, I see the spiritual protection in it since eve was beguiled, but adam didn't protect her also.He blamed all 3 including God. I do have to say I like that eve did fess up to what she did as far as not blaming it on Adam, yet adam blamed her..They both still sinned

I can understand the logic they would want to set up a teaching system that put the man in a more protective spiritual position, as God did put him in protection of her(didn't do a very good job though!)over the woman .

So I believe, it was decided for him to be the teacher, not the woman.Still thinking they could keep sin out by "themselves".Still not understanding Christ had to "really"do this for us.And being respectful to Gods first creation placement of Adam first, protecting eve..

But that was before Christ died for us when they set this up !

When Christ walked the earth "He was" the" new good news".Many woman followed him, and took "HIS" word to others. Including woman and men teams.Even teaching the good news to other men!
As I understand it also in the those times, if the womans name is written and shown first in Gods written word with a man, it shows a place of respect and authority.And there are places in God word where it is written as such in couples.(Priscila and Aquila)

When Christ came to us, I believe He, as part of dying for us, set man and woman in right relationship again, as in before the fall.

I do not see how man than would have to be over woman in teaching the good news of Christ only.
There is no more man and woman.We are equal.We all have gifts.

Let those who have them, use them.Still today many countries or areas have no men to teach or even bibles to teach from.I believe God is going to "use" who is available.The Holy Spirit has no gender favor?

Men and woman today are allowed to read and learn equally except in some countries or religious groups that do not allow it.When available,Bibles abound for both.We are blessed!

The Holy spirit resides in male and female.Counsels both, teaches both.We are also not to fear.So I do not understand how we should not teach men.

God is "all knowing", we are not to fear and the good news is for us all.

I myself am not in a position where I will only "learn from a man" and not teach, share what I know of His word.I share with who is open to receiving and some times it is men!

I suppose than I should not be sharing/telling/teaching anyone on this site "if" they are male than?.

My husband and I learned a great deal through each other both teaching each other at times when he walked on this earth.I thought that was the ultimate marriage.
I admired him greatly.I saw Gods plan of "both" sexes teaching ,walked out daily in it. I welcome any responses ;) man or woman.

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Danny
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Re: Women Teaching

Post by Danny » Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:24 pm

I couldn't help but notice a thread over in the New Testament area in which Suzana did an excellent job of explaining a scripture to Blackheart:
http://www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3149

It makes me wonder if Blackheart is male. Hmmm....
Or if any other males might read the thread and be instructed by what Suzana wrote. Hmmm...
My blog: http://dannycoleman.blogspot.com

“Both read the Bible day and night, But thou read’st black where I read white.”
-- William Blake

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kaufmannphillips
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Re: Women Teaching

Post by kaufmannphillips » Sun Mar 14, 2010 12:34 am

Homer wrote:
1 Timothy 2:12 (New King James Version)
12. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.
Herein we see the superiority of the New Covenant over the Old. For under the Old Covenant, women were prophetesses (q. v., Exodus 15:20, Judges 4:4, II Kings 22:14); but under the New Covenant, women are silent. And it is plain to any man alive that it is a far greater miracle for a woman to be silent, than for her to speak even the word of the Lord.

We may also consider, on this matter, I Corinthians 14:33-5 (New King James Version): For God is not [the author] of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but [they are] to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.

Why, one might ask, must women ask their own husbands at home, and not other men, or in public? Clearly, it is because in their silence they must mime their questions; and in doing so, the movements of their bodies might incite carnal desire.

Then what, one might ask, of those women who do not have husbands at home? Here we may repair to the Greek text, which speaks literally not of "husbands," but simply of "men." Each woman may mime her questions to the man whose domestic headship she is under, whether it be her husband, her father, her son, or her slavemaster. The first and last of these are permitted to succumb to her carnal incitement; the remainder are sufficiently constrained by common decency as not to be tempted.

And what, one might ask, of those women who do not have any such man? To this we reply that a woman who is not decently under the domestic headship of a man - such a woman does not deserve answers to her questions.


( ;) )
========================
"The more something is repeated, the more it becomes an unexamined truth...." (Nicholas Thompson)
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Danny
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Re: Women Teaching

Post by Danny » Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:32 am

:shock:
:lol:
My blog: http://dannycoleman.blogspot.com

“Both read the Bible day and night, But thou read’st black where I read white.”
-- William Blake

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glow
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Re: Women Teaching

Post by glow » Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:31 pm

Danny, I agree I think suzane did a nice job.She also could have added it might have been harder at the time also for the men to believe the woman because they were still not understanding how Christ came to set woman back in their rightful equal place yet either.

I think it quite obvious again, Christ teaches this again, as first appearing to a woman , not a man .
It set up once again, the chance for his people to grow in His example and word of "Do not fear"..He uses who he wants to teach through.

We not only teach by direct word, but also our actions.She was very brave.

Not only of what the woman was seeing with her own own eyes,hearing with her own ears,she had to not fear, but a woman bringing the men the good news of His resurrection. She had to face her own fears of being scorned or rejected just as a woman. let alone the amazing event.

Seems to me, there is still a whole lot of struggles still going on related to fear from both sides,

no wonder Christ/God repeated it so much. Do not fear!

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