Difference Between Men and Women

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Homer
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Difference Between Men and Women

Post by Homer » Sun Apr 18, 2010 7:25 pm

Okay, it has been a bit quiet on the forum lately. This should liven things up.

Recently at our bible study we were discussing the differences between men and women. There was general agreement that women are affected by emotion more than men. I made a comment based on a lifetime of observation. I believe that if you consider men and women in general, women are both better and worse than men. Let me explain what I mean.

I believe if we were capable, as God is, in judging the heart, and if we were to sample 1000 people at random, 500 men and 500 women, we would find that the majority of the kindest, most caring, and most Godly people would be women. That is, of the 100 best, the majority would easily be women. Conversely, I believe we would find that among the 100 most hateful, vicious, and mean we would also find a majority of women.

A few anecdotal observations come to mind. I have never forgotten a conversation with a man I worked with long ago in my twenties. His nickname was "Chick", real name Omer (close to Homer 8-) ), and he was in his early sixties, an old man to me at the time. Chick was what we would call a "cracker barrel philospher". One day he commented that in regard to being mean, men could not compete with women. Recently I have been reminded of his words. We recently met a man, John, who is sick with pancreatic cancer, a deadly disease. He is a Christian man, and his wife claimed to be. But after he was diagnosed with cancer his wife took the kids and left him. This is almost unbelievably cruel. Needless to say, John is devastated, and struggling to hold on to God.

Then there was a recent story on television, perhaps some of you saw it, of a man captured by Communist rebels in Columbia. He was held for a long time for a ransom and treated cruelly. He commented that among his tormentors the very worst were the women, while at the same time those most kind to him were also women.

Perhaps this difference I perceive between men and women is in my head. But perhaps not and is the reason God has chosen men for the responsibilty of leadership while women excel at nurturing.

Comments anyone? (running for cover)
Last edited by Homer on Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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christopher
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Re: Difference Between Men and Women

Post by christopher » Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:20 pm

Interesting theory Homer. But it would seem to me that history tells us that the cruelest people of all time have been men in leadership.

Also, didn't Paul tell us why men are appointed to leadership?

1 Tim 2:12-14
12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
NKJV


It appears Paul is saying it has something to do with 1) the creation order, and 2) the curse placed on Eve (and by extension, her gender) at the fall.

In my experience, I think I could agree with the idea of emotionally oriented people being more capable both of greater acts of love as well as greater acts of cruelty. But I don't know that I could necessarily agree with the generalization that women are more emotional and men more intellectual. Perhaps statistically it is the case, but I've seen way too many examples to the contrary for me to make that kind generalization.

Just my thoughts.

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Michelle
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Re: Difference Between Men and Women

Post by Michelle » Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:38 pm

I appreciate your reply, Christopher, because you brought up something I've been thinking about, too. Why aren't the two reasons mentioned in scripture enough to make the case? Homer, why do you feel the need to find something in women's nature that would exclude them from leadership?

I get a little uncomfortable when generalizations are made about men vs. women because I tend to end up on the male side of things... :P

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Homer
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Re: Difference Between Men and Women

Post by Homer » Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:37 pm

Christopher wrote:
Interesting theory Homer. But it would seem to me that history tells us that the cruelest people of all time have been men in leadership.
But would not their exceptional cruelty have been the result of opportunity, opportunity most often not available to women?
Also, didn't Paul tell us why men are appointed to leadership?

1 Tim 2:12-14
12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
NKJV

It appears Paul is saying it has something to do with 1) the creation order, and 2) the curse placed on Eve (and by extension, her gender) at the fall.
But Adam had personally received a command from God, prior to Eve being created, warning him not to eat of the tree. He abdicated his leadership role in regard to the command, Eve took the lead, Adam followed though he knew better, and the role reversal led to disaster. It appears the curse came after the leadership role was estabished.
But I don't know that I could necessarily agree with the generalization that women are more emotional and men more intellectual.
Whoa. I do not mean to imply men are more intellectual, but that they are less emotional. Here is a quote from C. S. Lewis that sums up my thoughts nicely:
"If your dog has bitten a neighbor's child, would you rather face the mother or the father to discuss the issue?"
Michelle wrote:
Homer, why do you feel the need to find something in women's nature that would exclude them from leadership?
I believe, contrary to the feminist ideology, that there are real differences between men and women other than the obvious anatomical differences, and that God made men and women with these differences to complement each other. The sum is greater than the parts. What I am interested in is what those differences are. A theodicy, perhaps.
I get a little uncomfortable when generalizations are made about men vs. women because I tend to end up on the male side of things...
But generalized conclusions are all we can make.

God bless! Homer

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Michelle
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Re: Difference Between Men and Women

Post by Michelle » Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:12 am

Homer wrote:Christopher wrote:
Interesting theory Homer. But it would seem to me that history tells us that the cruelest people of all time have been men in leadership.
But would not their exceptional cruelty have been the result of opportunity, opportunity most often not available to women?
This makes sense, I suppose. You seem to be saying that given the opportunity both men and women are capable of cruelty. Would your premise, then, be that women, given the same opportunity for evil that men have historically had, would have been much more cruel?
Also, didn't Paul tell us why men are appointed to leadership?

1 Tim 2:12-14
12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
NKJV

It appears Paul is saying it has something to do with 1) the creation order, and 2) the curse placed on Eve (and by extension, her gender) at the fall.
But Adam had personally received a command from God, prior to Eve being created, warning him not to eat of the tree. He abdicated his leadership role in regard to the command, Eve took the lead, Adam followed though he knew better, and the role reversal led to disaster. It appears the curse came after the leadership role was established.
I'm unclear about why you started your reply with 'but.' What did you say that is in contrast to what Christopher, quoting Paul, said?
But I don't know that I could necessarily agree with the generalization that women are more emotional and men more intellectual.
Whoa. I do not mean to imply men are more intellectual, but that they are less emotional. Here is a quote from C. S. Lewis that sums up my thoughts nicely:
"If your dog has bitten a neighbor's child, would you rather face the mother or the father to discuss the issue?"
Okay, then, I'll say it. Men are both more and less intellectual than women, based on IQ scores. Both genders average out to the same level, but men span the spectrum more, having a higher percentage in both the higher and lower ranges, and women cluster more at the average.

Of course the owner of the dog would rather reason with the father, but the who does the child run to?
Michelle wrote:
Homer, why do you feel the need to find something in women's nature that would exclude them from leadership?
I believe, contrary to the feminist ideology, that there are real differences between men and women other than the obvious anatomical differences, and that God made men and women with these differences to complement each other. The sum is greater than the parts. What I am interested in is what those differences are. A theodicy, perhaps.
Homer, I've said before that I agree with you. Your posts spur my thoughts, and as much as I agree with your basic ideology, your argumentation chafes me a bit. In the opening post of this thread, you began and ended with positive statements about women (at least I THINK you meant to be positive.) You said:
I believe that if you consider men and women in general, women are both better and worse than men.
And later:
But perhaps not and is the reason God has chosen men for the responsibilty of leadership while women excel at nurturing.
I'll assume that you consider nurturing as an awesome responsibility as well. (If you don't, you should, I'm just throwing that out there...) In between those two somewhat positive statements, you made women sound absolutely horrible. I choose to believe this was not your intention, but that is how it comes across because in your zeal to make your point you used a couple of anecdotes which illustrate the extremes.

You characterize leadership as a responsibility, which it is, I suppose. It's a responsibility that I don't really want. Apparently some women do, however. Since I was widowed when my children were very young and have never remarried, I had the responsibility as the head of my household for many years. I hate it. That was leadership of just two children, now adults, who are younger than me. I would REALLY hate the responsibility of a whole assembly of people. Men, however, whether they like it or not, are supposed to assume leadership, not all of them in the church, but in their households, for sure. They are supposed to do so, whether they like it or not - just like I had to. See? I feel more sorry for men than for women. It's easier to be nurturing, at least for me.
I get a little uncomfortable when generalizations are made about men vs. women because I tend to end up on the male side of things...
But generalized conclusions are all we can make.

God bless! Homer
As long as the generalizations do not harden into solid slabs of gender rules used to condemn those of us on just that side of the norms. While I am fully in the complementarian camp, I do have a few abilities that are sometimes assumed that men are better suited for. While I was married, my husband often acknowledged those strengths and sought my assistance in those areas. I would hate to think that because of the 'generalized conclusions' we make, my abilities had been disregarded as inappropriate, especially since at times they helped us avert minor disasters.

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Homer
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Re: Difference Between Men and Women

Post by Homer » Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:00 pm

Hi Michelle,

You wrote:
Would your premise, then, be that women, given the same opportunity for evil that men have historically had, would have been much more cruel?
I do not think they could be much more cruel, just that they would be more likely to act based on emotion, for good or ill.
I'm unclear about why you started your reply with 'but.' What did you say that is in contrast to what Christopher, quoting Paul, said?
Perhaps I misunderstood Christopher, but I understood him to say that he thought Paul was saying that men were assigned the role of leadership in the church and home after the fall of Adam and Eve rather than prior to that event which I understand to be the case.
Okay, then, I'll say it. Men are both more and less intellectual than women, based on IQ scores. Both genders average out to the same level, but men span the spectrum more, having a higher percentage in both the higher and lower ranges, and women cluster more at the average.
And I am postulating the same idea in regard to emotions, with women spanning the spectrum more than men.
Of course the owner of the dog would rather reason with the father, but the who does the child run to?
And here you make my point (or one of them). The child immediately recognizes there is a difference in Mom and Dad.
Your posts spur my thoughts, and as much as I agree with your basic ideology, your argumentation chafes me a bit.
Sorry; no chafe intended, not even a little bit. :(
In the opening post of this thread, you began and ended with positive statements about women (at least I THINK you meant to be positive.) You said:

I believe that if you consider men and women in general, women are both better and worse than men.
Yes, I did mean it to also be positive. When I think of the very best Christians, those who seem most Christ-like, women immediately pop into my head.
Men, however, whether they like it or not, are supposed to assume leadership, not all of them in the church, but in their households, for sure. They are supposed to do so, whether they like it or not - just like I had to.
And this is one of the biggest problems in the church and society today. Men abdicating their responsibility as leaders, and abandoning their famililies.

You are to be respected and commended for raising your family alone. My maternal grandfather was also a teacher. He died at 28, leaving my grandmother pregnant and with two children less than 5 years old. Grandma never remarried. She lived in rural Missouri in the early twentieth century. I do no know how she managed it. Her offspring were strong Christians, a large number of them became pastors. I am sure the strong families and churches played a role in it.

My interest in this is not so much to defend my position, but to show that God, in placing leadership responsibility on men, did not act arbitrarily, but based the assignment, at least partly, on the differing natures of men and women as He created them, however small those differences might be.

God bless, Homer

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Michelle
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Re: Difference Between Men and Women

Post by Michelle » Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:38 am

Homer wrote:
I'm unclear about why you started your reply with 'but.' What did you say that is in contrast to what Christopher, quoting Paul, said?
Perhaps I misunderstood Christopher, but I understood him to say that he thought Paul was saying that men were assigned the role of leadership in the church and home after the fall of Adam and Eve rather than prior to that event which I understand to be the case.
You've sucked me in. I'd love to see you expound on this. Here are my questions: Where do you see God assigning the role of leadership in the church and home (which I guess were one in the same in the garden since there were only Adam and Eve...) before the fall? How do you see Adam abdicating his responsibility for leadership? What did he neglect to do that would have prevented Eve's sin? Was this, then, Adam's sin?

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Homer
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Re: Difference Between Men and Women

Post by Homer » Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:50 pm

Hi Michelle,

I will get back to you soon. Got to get some work done and prepare for bible study tonight!

Thanks for your interest.

God bless, Homer

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christopher
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Re: Difference Between Men and Women

Post by christopher » Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:23 pm

Hi Homer,

Didn't mean to post and run like that...sorry.
Whoa. I do not mean to imply men are more intellectual, but that they are less emotional.
Sorry, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. But that is the generalization I usually hear.

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Homer
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Re: Difference Between Men and Women

Post by Homer » Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:09 am

Hi Michelle,

Here Paul states that as the man is subject to Christ, and Christ to God, so woman is subject to husband:

1 Corinthians 11:3-10 (New King James Version)
3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved. 6 For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered. 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man. 9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. 10 For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.


And Paul restates the analogy here:

Ephesians 5:23
For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.


And again here, where the mystery, I believe, means something not revealed under the old covenant. The relation of the husband and wife is the same as that between Christ and the church. Paul makes this analogy again and again. That relationship (Christ as head of His bride, the church) is a relationship coetaneous with the existance of the church; that is, there has never been a time when Christ was not head of the church. Likewise, there was never a time when Adam was not the head of Eve, his bride:

Ephesians 5:31-32 (New King James Version)
31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.


Though Eve sinned first, we do not all die in Eve, but in Adam. He was the head, and headship and greater responsibility go together:


1 Corinthians 15:22 (New King James Version) 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.


And here we see several things. Adam was created first and the command was given to him before Eve existed. God gave man dominion over the animals and with it the responsibility to name them. His naming Eve "woman" implies his headship over her:

Genesis 2:15-25 (New King James Version)
15 Then the LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
18 And the LORD God said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.” 19 Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him.
21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. 22 Then the rib which the LORD God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.
23 And Adam said:
“This is now bone of my bones
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called Woman,
Because she was taken out of Man.”
24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.


And here we find that God confronts Adam first over their sin. He abdicated leadership to Eve; he is the one most responsible, for he was not deceived:

Genesis 3:8-13 (New King James Version)
8 And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
9 Then the LORD God called to Adam and said to him, “Where are you?”
10 So he said, “I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.”
11 And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?”
12 Then the man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate.”
13 And the LORD God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”
The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”


Adam obviously had informed Eve of the command. I do not know how he might have prevented her from being deceived, but he certainly did not have to follow her lead into sin. This was his greatest sin, eating of the tree when he knew better (as opposed to not controlling her).

That's my thoughts anyway. Interestingly, the feminist argument is that Adam did not become Eve's head until after the fall.

God bless, Homer

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