Women in the pulpit

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darinhouston
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Re: Women in the pulpit

Post by darinhouston » Tue Jun 29, 2010 5:34 pm

Coincidentally, I just listened to the June 9 (or was it 11th?) radio show today -- a woman caller had questions about this subject.

Steve, you responded to part of her inquiry as to what the role of "prophet" looks like today with a suggestion that you avoid labels, etc. in your ministry -- I think that's a fine answer for men, but it struck me that women like this caller who are earnestly seeking to follow Paul's instructions in this regard don't have the same luxury that we men have in this area. I think, for them, it may be important to understand these labels/categories if they are to avoid serving in a way contrary to these scriptural proscriptions for women. Do you think that might alter your answer if asked again? (I, too, am curious about what this modern day prophetess role would look like -- surely, it's still legitimate since it's to be envied as better than the others).

On a related note, I met with one of the pastors after church this Sunday to discuss some of these issues. Unfortunately, he was trying to keep it to a hallway conversation, and it's just not appropriate to the depth of the discussion, so it didn't go very well -- he was open enough, but I think we were talking past each other and he didn't really understand what I was saying. We agreed that I would send him a letter to elaborate and provide some examples of points I was trying to make and then take him (and/or one of the "younger" perhaps deeper-thinking pastors) to lunch during the week for a deeper discussion (I hope).

ShelleyG
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Re: Women in the pulpit

Post by ShelleyG » Sun Jul 21, 2013 9:22 pm

I've been reading through all the posts regarding a woman's role in the church and find them interesting. I have recently stumbled across some teaching on the subject that I have never heard before. Much of it involves historical information that may or may not be valid. I would really be interested in hearing some opinions on the topic. I will post a link to one of the articles, but there are several more on the blog on the same topic if anyone is so inclined to read them all. http://christianfeminism.wordpress.com/ ... -than-men/ I don't consider myself a Christian feminist; just happened to find this when I was looking for something else. Thanks.

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Paidion
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Re: Women in the pulpit

Post by Paidion » Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:02 pm

Hi Shelley,

I went to the site, and was amused by the following:

Ten Top Reasons Why Men Should Not Be Ordained As Pastors

10. A man’s place is in the army.

9. For men who have children, their duties might distract them from the responsibilities of being a parent.

8. Their physical build indicates that men are more suited to tasks such as chopping down trees and wrestling mountain lions. It would be “unnatural” for them to do other forms of work.

7. Man was created before woman. It is therefore obvious that man was a prototype. Thus, they represent an experiment, rather than the crowning achievement of creation.

6. Men are too emotional to be priests or pastors. This is easily demonstrated by their conduct at football games and watching basketball tournaments.

5. Some men are handsome; they will distract women worshipers.

4. To be ordained pastor is to nurture the congregation. But this is not a traditional male role. Rather, throughout history, women have been considered to be not only more skilled than men at nurturing, but also more frequently attracted to it. This makes them the obvious choice for ordination.

3. Men are overly prone to violence. No really manly man wants to settle disputes by any means other than by fighting about it. Thus, they would be poor role models, as well as being dangerously unstable in positions of leadership.

2. Men can still be involved in church activities, even without being ordained. They can sweep paths, repair the church roof, change the oil in the church vans, and maybe even lead the singing on Father’s Day. By confining themselves to such traditional male roles, they can still be vitally important in the life of the Church.

1. In the New Testament account, the person who betrayed Jesus was a man. Thus, his lack of faith and ensuing punishment stands as a symbol of the subordinated position that all men should take.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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ShelleyG
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Re: Women in the pulpit

Post by ShelleyG » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:19 am

Yes, I ran across that silly article as well, which is why I wanted to make it clear that I'm not a Christian feminist. I was particularly concerned with the series of posts relating to my link since I think there are some valid points.

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Paidion
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Re: Women in the pulpit

Post by Paidion » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:30 am

I thought it was meant to be humorous. So that's the way I took it. I took no umbrage whatever.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 82.

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Paidion
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Re: Women in the pulpit

Post by Paidion » Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:51 pm

Were there women leaders in the early church?

The apostles of the early church were definitely not limited to The Twelve.
Luke called both Paul and Barnabus apostles in Acts 14:14

But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their garments and rushed out among the multitude...

Paul also called Epaphroditus the apostle of the Philippian church. I don’t know why so many translators render the word “messenger”. Perhaps they are slavishly following the King James Version.

I deemed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, fellow-worker, and fellow-soldier, but your apostle and minister to my need.

Paul also called James, the Lord’s brother an apostle. James was not one of the twelve. He is not to be confused with James the son of Zebedee, nor James the son of Alphaeus.

But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord’s brother. Galatians 1:19

Then we have this interesting greeting in Romans 16:7

Greet Andronicus and Jun…, who are notable in the apostles, and who have been in Christ before me.

Commentators are not in agreement as to whether this means that these two were notable by the apostles, or whether they themselves were apostles and were notable among them.

Gill, Barnes, Poole, and Robertson subscribe to the former, while Calvin, Luther, and Alford, the latter.

The Greek word for “in” (“en”) does sometimes seem to mean “by”. Most translators translate it as “among”, but even that does not seem to remove the ambiguity. Personally, I favour the latter view, (yes, I agree with Calvin in this case) that Paul is saying that these two were themselves apostles, and were apostles of note.

A further difficulty with the verse is the second name. The name is “Junia” (feminine) according to the AV, ESV, JB2000, KJ21, NKJV, and R Webster. However, the name is “Junias” (masculine) according to the ASV, Darby, Douay, Message, NASB, NIV, Philips, Rotherham, RSV, NRSV, and YLT.

Does the Greek help us here? If only Paul had placed an article before the name, it would have. But without the article, the accusative (objective) case has an identical ending for masculine words ending in “as” and feminine words ending in “a”. That ending is “ian”.

In the book of Matthew, there are five masculine names in the accusative case ending in “ian”. They are Uzziah [1,8], Hezekiah [1:9], Josiah [1,10], Jechoniah [1:10], and Elijah [16:14]. There is one feminine name in the accusative case ending in “ian” Mary [1:20]. However there are 29 other feminine words (non-names of persons) in the accusative case, ending in “ian”. The word “Messiah” is masculine, and is used in the accusative case, ending in “ian” in John 1:41.

Some who claim the word “Junian” in Rom 16:7 is the accusative form of “Junia” say that this is evidence that there was a female apostle. But since “Junias” would also have the same accusative form, it is not known for certain whether this person was a man or a woman.

As I see it, it seems unlikely that this person was a woman in view of other statements made by Paul, such as that a woman was to be silent in church, and if she had a question to ask her husband at home.

Some claim that since Paul mentions a female deacon, Phoebe, in Romans 16:1, that this is evidence that there were female leaders in the primitive church. However, the function of a “deacon”, today, differs markedly from the deacons in the first century. At that time, they were “servers” or “distributors” (the very meaning of the Greek word “diakonos”. They served tables (as the original seven appointed deacons), or they ministered to the needs of the needy, by distributing to them what was necessary. They were not Christian leaders.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 82.

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Jepne
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Re: Women in the pulpit

Post by Jepne » Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:05 am

I have enjoyed hearing many women teach the younger women how to love their husbands and children, and especially I love to see them live these things.

I have seen women who have their own ministries or call themselves apostles of the fellowships they lead. Even though they do let their husbands lead worship and keep the books, :roll: it just makes me feel awful.
"Anything you think you know about God that you can't find in the person of Jesus, you have reason to question.” - anonymous

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