Begotten before all ages

[TK]

paidion wrote:

Why do you say "but", Darin? I can't conceive of "a time before time" either! That's the very point I have been trying to make. If there is a beginning to time (and I believe there is), then there was no "before". So if there really was no "before", then how could ANYTHING exist "before"? To say that it did is meaningless.

but if God "created" time (if He didn't, then who did?) then He must have existed prior to time, or else how could he have created it?

Isn't this fun?

TK

[SteveF]

Hi TK, I don't think Paidion is saying that God didn't exist before time. I think he's saying that God existed outside of time. THerefore, I think he was only making a point about time and not God's existence. In other words, I could say that you posted your entry "before" mine. The reason I can say this is because we are thinking in terms of time. On the other hand, before time was created we couldn't use the term "before" since there was no time. I think that's what he was trying to say.

PS...it's lots of fun

[TK]

hi stevef-

your explanation would make sense, except for the fact that Paidion has stated elsewhere that he does not accept the "God is outside time" concept. E.g., CS lewis believes that God is "outside time" which explains how he can see the future w/o at the same time controlling it. But i remember paidion having a problem with the idea of God being outside time.

paidion, if I am remembering incorrectly, by all means say so.

TK

[Paidion]

TK, I wrote my reply to both you and SteveF, prior to your final post, and when I went to send it, everything locked up. It turns out that the towers in this area somehow stopped operating, and so I was without internet of a few hours.

but if God "created" time (if He didn't, then who did?)...

No one created time. In my simple view, time is just a measurement of the interval between the occurence of two events. When the first event occurred, time began. After the second event occurred, there was the first time interval. No events; no time.

It's analgous to space. God didn't have to create space. As soon as He created matter, space was there. For space is simply a measurement of the distance between two objects. No objects; no space.

...then He must have existed prior to time, or else how could he have created it?

If time actually began, then there is no "prior to time". If event B marks the beginning of time, and if event A occured prior to B, then B was NOT the beginning of time. For there are no events before the beginning of time, simply because there is no "before". Nor can there be any "existence" before the beginning of time, simply because there is no "before".

[quote"SteveF you]I don't think Paidion is saying that God didn't exist before time. I think he's saying that God existed outside of time.[/quote]

True I am not saying that God didn't exist before time, nor am I saying that God DID exist before time ---- the reason being that it makes no sense to speak either of events or existence before time, simply because there is no before.

Yes, TK, you are right. I don't believe in some kind of existence "outside of time". In my opinion, this idea is unintelligible. It is meaningless --- makes no sense.

I believe God begat His Son, and that event was the first event ever to occur. That event marked the beginning of time. It is meaningless to speak of anything before that event. There was no "before". I think the begetting of the Son was instantaneous, that is, though the event marked the beginning of time, it took no time. So there was no TIME at which the Son did not exist. God did not exist before Him.

Let's examine more carefully that marvellous, insightful, succinct statement:

The Father was not temporally prior to the Son, but was causally prior.

In other words, the Father didn't exist before the Son in terms of time. Yet He caused the Son to exist, not be creating Him, but by begetting Him.

[darinhouston]

Let's examine more carefully that marvellous, insightful, succinct statement:

The Father was not temporally prior to the Son, but was causally prior.

In other words, the Father didn't exist before the Son in terms of time. Yet He caused the Son to exist, not be creating Him, but by begetting Him.

I'm no astrophysicist, but I understand that they maintain that "causation" and "time" are concepts that only exist within the space-time reality of our 4 dimension universe (time being the fourth dimension). They have (mathematically) proven that other dimensions exist but they have no reality within our tangible Universe. This leads credence to CS Lewis' suggestion that God is "outside" of time and space in a spiritual dimension or somesuch. It's hard for us beings bound to this time-space reality to comprehend such things.

[Paidion]

I'm no astrophysicist, but I understand that they maintain that "causation" and "time" are concepts that only exist within the space-time reality of our 4 dimension universe (time being the fourth dimension). They have (mathematically) proven that other dimensions exist but they have no reality within our tangible Universe. This leads credence to CS Lewis' suggestion that God is "outside" of time and space in a spiritual dimension or somesuch. It's hard for us beings bound to this time-space reality to comprehend such things.

I'd go even further and say it is impossible for us to comprehend such things. For such things are unintelligible. The affirmation that "other dimensions have no reality within our tangible universe" is tantamount to the simple affirmation "other dimensions have no reality".
Why not simply say that God and other spiritual beings exist within our universe, but that as spiritual beings they can appear, or disappear, or reveal themselves within people, etc.?

I am not convinced even that time is "a fourth dimension". To my simple mind, time is not of the same order of entity as dimension.

Some hypothesize that there are several Universes --- a contradictory and meaningless statement if the Universe is defined as "all that exists".

[SteveF]

Thanks for expounding on your views Paidion. I'm getting a clearer picture of what you're saying. I think I remember you saying you taught as a profession. If that's the case, I would have loved to sit in on one of your classes and hear you extrapolate on this subject.

[TK]

paidion--

if your view is correct (and i think I too am just beginning to understand it) then technically it would be possible (at least theoretically) to determine how long ago Jesus was begotten. In other words, if that event marked the beginning of time, then it follows that that event occurred a certain number of years ago. Do you agree or disagree with this concept?

TK

[Suzana]

I think I do understand where Paidion is coming from, but it makes more sense (to my fragile brain) to think of God as being outside time [?and space] (Isa 57:15 says God ‘inhabits eternity’).

“If time actually began, then there is no "prior to time". If event B marks the beginning of time, and if event A occured prior to B, then B was NOT the beginning of time.”

But what if event A occurred in a different dimension, and is not connected to our earth/universe time?
The statement that “it makes no sense to speak either of events or existence before time, simply because there is no before”, somehow still leaves me (logically or not) with the impression of God then having to have had a beginning, and I can’t accept that.
I find I can cope better with the idea that there always is before – in the “I AM THAT I AM”’, whether I can comprehend the concept or not.

[Paidion]

I would have loved to sit in on one of your classes and hear you extrapolate on this subject.

Do you mean "expound on this subject"? Rats! There's the teacher coming out in me again. Why do I have the need to correct people?

if your view is correct (and i think I too am just beginning to understand it) then technically it would be possible (at least theoretically) to determine how long ago Jesus was begotten. In other words, if that event marked the beginning of time, then it follows that that event occurred a certain number of years ago. Do you agree or disagree with this concept?

I agree. It seems that if time had a real beginning as I believe, then there must be a finite number of years since the beginning of time.

The statement that “it makes no sense to speak either of events or existence before time, simply because there is no before”, somehow still leaves me (logically or not) with the impression of God then having to have had a beginning, and I can’t accept that.

I think the reason for that impression is that you think there always has to be a "before", that is, that there is an infinite regression of time into the past. We were all educated to believe that. I believed it until the moment I understood that time had an actual beginning. We have also been told within Christianity about "eternity past".

On the other hand, if time really had a beginning and God and His Son were there at that beginning, then there was no time at which God or His Son did not exist.

I find I can cope better with the idea that there always is before – in the “I AM THAT I AM”’, whether I can comprehend the concept or not.

Okay. I guess there are psychological differences in our abilities to cope.

When I believed in "eternity past", I had a great deal of difficulty coping with the idea that, prior to creation, God existed for an infinite amount of time doing nothing.