Re: John 20:28 - "my lord and my god"
Posted: Sat May 01, 2021 11:35 pm
By the same power the apostles did some of the same things.... the power of the Holy Spirit.
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Actually the Greek words for "My Lord and my God" prove that these words were NOT directed to Jesus.Dwight wrote:The above references show that eipen auto are addressed to the referent of the pronoun auto. This conclusively proves that Thomas’ confession was directed to Jesus, that John deliberately used the Greek words eipen auto in order to show that Thomas was directly addressing Jesus as his Lord and God.
Paidion wrote: ↑Sun May 02, 2021 11:56 amDwight - Paidon, that's not my quote, you must mean someone else.Dwight wrote:The above references show that eipen auto are addressed to the referent of the pronoun auto. This conclusively proves that Thomas’ confession was directed to Jesus, that John deliberately used the Greek words eipen auto in order to show that Thomas was directly addressing Jesus as his Lord and God.
Actually the Greek words for "My Lord and my God" prove that these words were NOT directed to Jesus.
Words directed to a person are in the vocative case. This is true in all cases where words WERE directed to Jesus.
However the words "Lord" and "God" are in the nominative case. This is the case which is used for the subject of a sentence.
Even though Thomas was talking to Jesus, perhaps he was beginning a sentence such as "My Lord and my God has raised you from the dead!" but for some reason didn't finish the sentence.
That he had begun such a sentence would explain Jesus's response: "Have you believed (that I have been raised) because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
Dwight - Sorry, that answer doesn't explain it. "SOME of the SAME things?" Are you kidding me? Try TWO out of the TWENTY-SIX things that I listed, that we KNOW they did -POSSIBLY FOUR, but no more than that. Out of the 26 things that I mentioned, there was only about 4 that the apostles MIGHT have done: 1. Peter walked on water, but only because Jesus gave Him PERMISSION to, 2. They raised some from the dead - again, ONLY after petitioning God - Jesus SIMPLY COMMANDED THE DEAD TO RISE., 3. Opening blind eyes - No account given of the apostles doing this, but maybe - and 4. Opening deaf ears - Again, no account given, but they might have done this.darinhouston wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 11:35 pmBy the same power the apostles did some of the same things.... the power of the Holy Spirit.
A.T. Robertson, in his Word Pictures in the New Testament, Volume V, Page 316, comments on the Greek of John 20:28:Actually the Greek words for "My Lord and my God" prove that these words were NOT directed to Jesus.
Words directed to a person are in the vocative case. This is true in all cases where words WERE directed to Jesus.
However the words "Lord" and "God" are in the nominative case. This is the case which is used for the subject of a sentence.
"Not exclamation, but address, the vocative case though the form of the nominative, a very common thing in the Koine. Thomas was wholly convinced and did not hesitate to address the risen Christ as Lord and God. And Jesus accepts the words and praises Thomas for doing so."
Dwight - Here too, you simply ignore my point. Twenty-two out of the 26 things could never be done by the apostles. It takes God to do those things.darinhouston wrote: ↑Sun May 02, 2021 9:44 pmDwight, do you think that simply saying all the same things over and over again in different combinations is persuasive?
Dwight - If you're referring to John 5:18, I have not made the point previously, concerning this verse, that I made here. Just because I use the same verse that I have used before, does not mean I am making the same point about it that I made previously. Did you even see this NEW point, or do you not care to even acknowledge it?
Actually, ALL of the things you note (whether done by the Apostles or Jesus) can only be done by God or by His permission. Jesus did nothing that He wasn't granted to do by the Father and all was done not for his own glory but the glory of the Father. It was the Father that glorified Jesus after His life and death of obedience.
Nope. In neither of these verses was anyone addresses in the nominative case. Rather the vocative case is employed as usual.Homer wrote:How about two:
John 17:25 Righteous Father, even the world has not known you.
Mark 9:19 O unfaithful generation! How long will I be with you?