Begotten before all ages

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Paidion
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Re: Begotten before all ages

Post by Paidion » Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:55 pm

Did'nt Paul use the word begotten to refer to the resurrection?
No, he used the word "born" for that purpose. You may have the following passage in mind:

And we bring you the good news that what God promised to the fathers,
this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus, as also it is written in the second Psalm,
“‘You are my Son,
today I have begotten you.’
And as for the fact that he raised him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, he has spoken in this way, “‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.’
Acts 13:32-34

You may have thought that God "raising Jesus" refers to His resurrection. If that were the case, why would he write "And as for the fact that he raised him from the dead..." as if he were addressing a different issue? And Paul is addressing a different issue. God fulfiled the good news by "raising Jesus", that is by raising up Jesus for the purpose of introducing the good news of the Kingdom. This started right at the beginning of time when God begat Him. That's when God raised Him up for the purpose of bringing good news to man. It culminated in HIs being born as a human being, and being the first to proclaim the gospel of the Kingdom (right after His forerunner, John the Baptizer).
Did'nt Jesus become the Son when he was born as a human?
That's when He became the human Son. But He was the divine Son from the Beginning.
Did'nt John refer to him as the Word prior to the incarnation?
Yes. He had many different designations.

He desired to lead us to trust in His kindness, to esteem Him our Nourisher, Father, Teacher, Counsellor, Healer, our Wisdom, Light, Honour, Glory, Power, and Life...

Letter to Diognetus ch. 9

He is the Son of God, and since we call Him "the Son", we have understood that he proceeded before all creation from the Father by His power and will (for He is addressed in the writings of the prophets in one way or another as "Wisdom" and "the Day", and "the East" and "a Sword", and "a Stone", and "a Rod", and "Jacob", and "Israel")...

Dialogue With Trypho ch. 100
Paidion

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Re: Begotten before all ages

Post by Pierac » Sat Dec 13, 2008 6:00 pm

Paidion wrote:
Did'nt Jesus become the Son when he was born as a human?
That's when He became the human Son. But He was the divine Son from the Beginning.
Did'nt John refer to him as the Word prior to the incarnation?
Yes. He had many different designations.

He desired to lead us to trust in His kindness, to esteem Him our Nourisher, Father, Teacher, Counsellor, Healer, our Wisdom, Light, Honour, Glory, Power, and Life...

Letter to Diognetus ch. 9

He is the Son of God, and since we call Him "the Son", we have understood that he proceeded before all creation from the Father by His power and will (for He is addressed in the writings of the prophets in one way or another as "Wisdom" and "the Day", and "the East" and "a Sword", and "a Stone", and "a Rod", and "Jacob", and "Israel")...

Dialogue With Trypho ch. 100
Not according to Gabriel,

Gabriel explaines why Jesus is to be called the Son of God according to... Gabriel's own words.


Luk 1:26 Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city in Galilee called Nazareth, 27 to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the descendants of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. 28 And coming in, he said to her, "Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you." 29 But she was very perplexed at this statement, and kept pondering what kind of salutation this was. 30 The angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God. 31 "And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus. 32 "He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; 33 and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end."

Now look very carefully as to why Jesus is to be called the son of God according to Gabriel!

NASB Luke 1:35 The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

Read the Greek διο1352

Thayer Definition:
1) wherefore, on account off

Gabriel is not speaking of God Himself coming in the flesh, but only that the Spirit of God would generate the Messiah/Christ within Mary! This matches the teachings of the prophets and Moses himself!

Yes, begotten is the term we are looking for!



Peace,
Paul
Last edited by Pierac on Sat Dec 13, 2008 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Begotten before all ages

Post by Pierac » Sat Dec 13, 2008 6:28 pm

Son of God

- This title for Jesus has been given meanings and attributes that were never intended. People have erroneously used the human father-son relationship to describe this title of Jesus’. They have thought that since a human son has the actual essence (made of the same matter) of his father, that therefore, this title implies that Jesus being the Son of God is of the same essence of God. This conclusion will lead you right into the Doctrine of the Trinity. This is the formula they adopted at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD when they said:

"The Son is of the same substance as the Father."

It was at this council that Jesus was first made God. The Holy Spirit interestingly enough was not included in the formula. It was included fifty-six years later at another council. Let’s see what this title really means:

Son of God - In the Old Testament Israel is described as God’s first-born (Exodus 4:22) and is called His son. There is therefore precedence for calling the Messiah "Son of God" for he is Israel’s representative par excellence (ZEB, vol.4, pg.203-204).

"Son of God" denotes an intimate relationship with the Father. It is obvious that sonship must not be understood in a crude pagan way. This bears out Dalman’s contention that the Hebrew concept of "son" does not denote an extensive circle of relationships" (ZEB, vol.4, pg. 205). Adam was called the "son of God" (Luke 3:38), God calls King Solomon His "son" in 1 Chronicles 28:6.

For Paul, "Son of God" is essentially a Christological description expressing "the Son’s solidarity with God" (ZEB, vol.4, pg.204). Closeness to the Father is the basic meaning of "Son of God"(Ibid). This closeness was a relationship that was shared by God’s anointed kings of Israel. Since Jesus is the ideal king of Israel, he is naturally the ideal Son of God. This is how the term came to be synonymous with Messiah and king of Israel. They are all different ways of saying the same thing.

The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible vol. 4 pg. 204 states:

"The last chapter of the first epistle of John makes every possible emphasis upon the principle that Sonship is the mark of Messiahship. The same is the case with the fourth gospel where the Son of God is synonymous with Messiah and occurs more frequently than any other title. Haenchen maintains that the same equation:

Messiah = Son of God = Son of Man

applies to Mark’s gospel. The same can be said of the rest of the New Testament."

Aspects of Monotheism pg.90 states:

"The notion that the Davidic king was the son of God is well established in the Hebrew Bible in 2 Samuel 7:14 and in Psalm 2:7. It was only natural then that the coming messianic king should also be regarded as the Son of God. To say that the king was the son of God, however, does not necessarily imply divinization."


This is the meaning of the title "Son of God." Messiah = Son of God = king of Israel = Son of Man. The Messiah does have the closest and most intimate relationship with the Father. Let’s take a look at some verses to confirm this.

"The kings of the earth rise up, and the princes conspire together against the LORD and His anointed (Messiah)"… "I myself have set up my king on Zion (Israel)"… "The LORD said to me, "You are my son" (Psalm 2:2,6-7).

Here we see God speaking of the Messiah using all three titles; Messiah, king of Zion, and son.

Keep seeking the truth!
Paul


"He first found his own brother and told him, "We have found the Messiah"…"Rabbi, you are the Son of God: you are the King of Israel" (John 1:41& 49).

John cannot be clearer on this title; the Son of God is the King of Israel. This is the Jewish meaning of "Son of God." Any other definition will take away from the true meaning of the title into something that was never intended by its Jewish author.

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Re: Begotten before all ages

Post by Paidion » Sat Dec 13, 2008 7:58 pm

Paul you wrote:Now look very carefully as to why Jesus is to be called the son of God according to Gabriel!NASB Luke 1:35 The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

Read the Greek διο1352
Can we really come to the conclusion that the Most High overshadowing Mary is the reason that the holy Child shall be called the Son of God? Are you convinced that the single Greek word "διο" means "for that reason"? Let's see if that works for Ephesians 4:4-8

There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift. For that reasonit is said, "When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men."

Let's see. There is one body, one Spirit, one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father. Grace was given to each of us --- Christ's gift to us. So is that the reason these words of Psalm 68:18 were written?

Isn't a simple 'therefore" adequate as the translation of "διο"?

And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy––the Son of God.

As I see it, the idea is that when the Holy Spirit came upon Mary, and caused her to become pregnant, and the Son of God became flesh, then he would be called "the Son of God" by people. Prior to that, the pre-incarnate Son of God was not known as such. When He made His appearances on earth, it was sometimes thought that He was an angel. Abraham recognized Him as "Yahweh" (He shares that name with His father. Look at Genesis 19:24 to see both "Yahwehs" in a single verse). But generally He was not known as "the Son of God" in the old economy.

Yet, there does appear to be a recognition of Him by the Psalmist:

Psalms 2:12 Kiss the Son,
lest he be angry, and you perish in the way,
for his wrath is quickly kindled.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
ESV
Paidion

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Re: Begotten before all ages

Post by Suzana » Sat Dec 13, 2008 8:18 pm

Pierac wrote:Son of God
- This title for Jesus has been given meanings and attributes that were never intended. People have erroneously used the human father-son relationship to describe this title of Jesus’. They have thought that since a human son has the actual essence (made of the same matter) of his father, that therefore, this title implies that Jesus being the Son of God is of the same essence of God.

...Closeness to the Father is the basic meaning of "Son of God"

...Gabriel is not speaking of God Himself coming in the flesh, but only that the Spirit of God would generate the Messiah/Christ within Mary!
Paul, are you saying that Jesus was not divine? Are you saying he wasn't, while he was in the flesh (despite being conceived by the Holy Spirit), or wasn't at all, even when pre-incarnate? Or am I not understanding you?

Matthew 22:41-46 (KJV) 41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. 43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, 44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? 45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? 46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

What point do you think Jesus was trying to make?
Suzana
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Re: Begotten before all ages

Post by Pierac » Sun Dec 14, 2008 2:01 am

Paidion wrote:
Paul you wrote:Now look very carefully as to why Jesus is to be called the son of God according to Gabriel!NASB Luke 1:35 The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

Read the Greek διο1352
Can we really come to the conclusion that the Most High overshadowing Mary is the reason that the holy Child shall be called the Son of God? Are you convinced that the single Greek word "διο" means "for that reason"? Let's see if that works for Ephesians 4:4-8

There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift. For that reasonit is said, "When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men."

Let's see. There is one body, one Spirit, one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father. Grace was given to each of us --- Christ's gift to us. So is that the reason these words of Psalm 68:18 were written?

Isn't a simple 'therefore" adequate as the translation of "διο"?

And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy––the Son of God.

As I see it, the idea is that when the Holy Spirit came upon Mary, and caused her to become pregnant, and the Son of God became flesh, then he would be called "the Son of God" by people. Prior to that, the pre-incarnate Son of God was not known as such. When He made His appearances on earth, it was sometimes thought that He was an angel. Abraham recognized Him as "Yahweh" (He shares that name with His father. Look at Genesis 19:24 to see both "Yahwehs" in a single verse). But generally He was not known as "the Son of God" in the old economy.

Yet, there does appear to be a recognition of Him by the Psalmist:

Psalms 2:12 Kiss the Son,
lest he be angry, and you perish in the way,
for his wrath is quickly kindled.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
ESV
Dia, must be understood in the context of the whole of scripture. For example, you can not know the bible by the parts, you can only know it by the whole. The creation of chapters and verses are the main reason we have over 30,000 Christian denominations. What I'm trying to say is each verse, that contains the Greek word Dia, needs to be looked at in the whole of biblical context related to that verse, not just that single verse.

Paul

Pierac
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Re: Begotten before all ages

Post by Pierac » Sun Dec 14, 2008 2:26 am

Suzana wrote:
Pierac wrote:Son of God
- This title for Jesus has been given meanings and attributes that were never intended. People have erroneously used the human father-son relationship to describe this title of Jesus’. They have thought that since a human son has the actual essence (made of the same matter) of his father, that therefore, this title implies that Jesus being the Son of God is of the same essence of God.

...Closeness to the Father is the basic meaning of "Son of God"

...Gabriel is not speaking of God Himself coming in the flesh, but only that the Spirit of God would generate the Messiah/Christ within Mary!
Paul, are you saying that Jesus was not divine? Are you saying he wasn't, while he was in the flesh (despite being conceived by the Holy Spirit), or wasn't at all, even when pre-incarnate? Or am I not understanding you?

Matthew 22:41-46 (KJV) 41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. 43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, 44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? 45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? 46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

What point do you think Jesus was trying to make?

Hi Suzana,

I hope you don't mind but I moved your question to my thread. The response is important to my topic. :oops:

It's post number 6

http://www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=2474

Paul

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Paidion
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Re: Begotten before all ages

Post by Paidion » Sun Dec 14, 2008 10:20 am

Pierac wrote:Dia, must be understood in the context of the whole of scripture. For example, you can not know the bible by the parts, you can only know it by the whole. The creation of chapters and verses are the main reason we have over 30,000 Christian denominations. What I'm trying to say is each verse, that contains the Greek word Dia, needs to be looked at in the whole of biblical context related to that verse, not just that single verse.
"The context of the whole of scripture". Paul there is no context to "the whole of scripture". I am sure you realize that the Bible is a collection of many different writings by many different authors over vast periods of time. To discover the way a Greek word is used, we need to look at its immediate context in as many different places as possible, including the Septuagint and extra-biblical Greek writings of the time such as the Apocrypha or even gnostic writings.
Paidion

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Re: Begotten before all ages

Post by RND » Sun Dec 14, 2008 1:13 pm

joel wrote:Has anyone ever heard the theory that God's method of accomplishing :
"Cursed is the ground for your sake; " Gen 3:17
was by applying time ? Consider at that point all things begin to age and decay.
That's an interesting thought considering that time was created before man. God knew, unfortunately, that Adam would sin. That didn't prevent God from continuing with His plan to eradicate sin by allowing sin to overcome His creation. So I think the fact that time was created before Adam was created is further evidence of God using the sin problem to His advantage.
As far as "begotten" - I had a prof explain it this way (if I can remember):
God created man - Man begets man and does not create man.
God created cows - Cows beget cows and cows do not create cows.
God created large mouth bass - Large mouth bass beget large mouth bass they do not create large mouth bass.
God does not create God - God (the Father) begets God (the Son) (the Holy Spirit) - God is eternal.

Begotten would support that the Son is eternal thus never non-existent.

It is a brain drainer to contemplate ...
--joel
Smart professor.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

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Re: Begotten before all ages

Post by steve7150 » Sun Dec 14, 2008 1:47 pm

And we bring you the good news that what God promised to the fathers,
this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus, as also it is written in the second Psalm,
“‘You are my Son,
today I have begotten you.’
And as for the fact that he raised him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, he has spoken in this way, “‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.’ Acts 13:32-34

You may have thought that God "raising Jesus" refers to His resurrection. If that were the case, why would he write "And as for the fact that he raised him from the dead..." as if he were addressing a different issue? And Paul is addressing a different issue.




It sounds like Paul uses "and" to mean "therefore" thus continuing the stream of thought plus if God promised the fathers , it would be an extraordinary future event verses what you believe which would be a past event.
Plus Col 1.15-1.18 confirms this IMHO by defining "firstborn of creation" (begotten) as "firstborn from the dead" or resurrection.

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