Begotten before all ages

[Paidion]

First the grammatical question. The words are literally, "The [one] being, the [one who]was, and the [one] coming.

As for the one who is speaking, according to modern hymnology, it is Jesus who is "the Alpha and the Omega". But are we certain of this? In this verse He is said to be the "Lord God" which probably meant "Yahweh God". The Jews later translated "Yahweh" as "Lord", as per the Septuagint, and New Testament writers. This was to avoid taking the name of "Yahweh" in vain. In this verse, the One who is the Alpha and the Omega, is also said to be the "παντακρατορ", literally, the "ruler over all", which some translators render as "almighty". The reference appears to be the Father rather than the Son.

Here is the complete list of New Testament verses which contain the word "παντακρατορ":

2 Corinthians 6:18 and I will be a father to you, and you shall be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty."
Revelation 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.
Revelation 4:8 ¶ And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all round and within, and day and night they never cease to sing, "Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!"
Revelation 11:17 saying, "We give thanks to thee, Lord God Almighty, who art and who wast, that thou hast taken thy great power and begun to reign.
Revelation 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, "Great and wonderful are thy deeds, O Lord God the Almighty! Just and true are thy ways, O King of the ages!
Revelation 16:7 And I heard the altar cry, "Yea, Lord God the Almighty, true and just are thy judgments!"
Revelation 16:14 for they are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty.
Revelation 19:6 Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a great multitude, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of mighty thunderpeals, crying, "Hallelujah! For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns.
Revelation 19:15 From his mouth issues a sharp sword with which to smite the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron; he will tread the wine press of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.
Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.

Notice that the final verse distinguishes "the Lord God the Almighty (ruler over all) from the Lamb. Notice also that in Rev 15:3, it is the Song of the Lamb which addresses "O Lord God the Almighty!" and "O King of the ages!"

[TK]

there you go again, paidion, ruining my theories.

but later in Rev ch 1 Jesus DOES say that He is the "first and the last." (v. 17).

can both Jesus and the Father, in your view of things, be the "first and the last?"

TK

[Paidion]

You are right, TK. In verse 17, the one who said, "I am the first and the last" is the same one who said, "I died, and behold, I am alive forevermore."

Perhaps both the Father and the Son are, in fact, "the first and the last". The Father is no "older" than the Son. Both were there at the beginning of time. The Father was there, and He begat the Son at that instant. So both of Them were "the first".

I cannot imagine how either one of Them will be "the last". Both are immortal and will never come to an end. But this is so with all the children of God, also. No? So what is meant by both of Them or either one of Them being "the last"? I don't have a clue.

[Suzana]

I cannot imagine how either one of Them will be "the last". Both are immortal and will never come to an end. But this is so with all the children of God, also. No? So what is meant by both of Them or either one of Them being "the last"? I don't have a clue.

As far as I recall, I’ve never before thought to question what ‘the last’ may mean, until now. What came into my mind were these scriptures:

1 Corinthians 15:25 (KJV) For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

1 Corinthians 15:24 (KJV) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

So I’m wondering whether “the last” may be a reference to the fact that at the end there will be no other authority ( as a reality, and also universally recognised ), ever again, anywhere in the universe.

The context of the phrase when used in Isaiah also seems (to me) to emphasise the right of rulership and all authority being ascribed to God.

Isaiah 44:6 (KJV) Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

[Paidion]

BRILLIANT!

Thanks, Suzana

[Michelle]

BRILLIANT!

Thanks, Suzana

That was pretty good, wasn't it?

[Jill]

.

[Suzana]

well it was pretty good of Paidion to say that, a bit like being handed a merit card by the headmaster!

[TK]

i was thinking the exact same thing, Suzana!

can you imagine getting an A+ from paidion(he was teacher, right?) that would be impressive.

TK

[steve7150]

Did'nt Paul use the word begotten to refer to the resurrection?
Did'nt Jesus become the Son when he was born as a human?
Did'nt John refer to him as the Word prior to the incarnation? Sorry i don't have the bible references in front of me but i think i can find them if you want.