Shema Yisrael

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RND
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Re: Shema Yisrael

Post by RND » Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:00 am

Pierac wrote:
RND wrote:Paul, ever think of shortening your posts? Brevity is the sign of wit.
What do you mean? You are reading my short post! ;) I would not think 3 min of your time not to be too excessive. However, I guess it all depends on your grade level and on how well and fast you can read??? :oops:

Paul
My grade level? What does not passing the fifth grade have to do with anything? Your posts are too long and I generally don't read long posts. In fact, most people don't, even 6th graders.

Brevity.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

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Re: Shema Yisrael

Post by darinhouston » Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:39 pm

Pierac wrote:
RND wrote:Paul, ever think of shortening your posts? Brevity is the sign of wit.
What do you mean? You are reading my short post! ;) I would not think 3 min of your time not to be too excessive. However, I guess it all depends on your grade level and on how well and fast you can read??? :oops:

Paul
It's not the mere length of the post -- if you took the time to write even lengthy responses to existing discussions that were already of interest to folks, most of us interested in those threads would read them (consider Paidion's posts), but copy and paste essays resulting from your "research" for folks to "consider" don't belong in these topical threads.
We do have an area for folks to post "essays" and the sort, here: http://www.theos.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=54

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Re: Shema Yisrael

Post by Pierac » Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:36 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Pierac wrote:
RND wrote:Paul, ever think of shortening your posts? Brevity is the sign of wit.
What do you mean? You are reading my short post! ;) I would not think 3 min of your time not to be too excessive. However, I guess it all depends on your grade level and on how well and fast you can read??? :oops:

Paul
It's not the mere length of the post -- if you took the time to write even lengthy responses to existing discussions that were already of interest to folks, most of us interested in those threads would read them (consider Paidion's posts), but copy and paste essays resulting from your "research" for folks to "consider" don't belong in these topical threads.
We do have an area for folks to post "essays" and the sort, here: http://www.theos.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=54

You assume as to what is copied and pasted...

Use you computer bible and do a search on... The "Finger of God" As you would learn much...

When reading in Exodus awhile back, I came upon the phrase "the finger of God." I
(that's me) was aware that the same phrase was used in the book of Luke regarding the method Jesus uses to cast out demons. I decided to do a phrase study using e-Sword. The following information is from my OWN research.

Exo 8:19 Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God." But Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the LORD had said.
Exo 31:18 And he gave to Moses, when he had finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.

Luk 11:14 Now he was casting out a demon that was mute. When the demon had gone out, the mute man spoke, and the people marveled. 15 But some of them said, "He casts out demons by Beelzebul, the prince of demons," 16 while others, to test him, kept seeking from him a sign from heaven
Luk 11:20 But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

I had also come upon Scriptures that says Jesus cast out demons by the Spirit of God. This would strongly lead to the conclusion that the finger of God is the Spirit of God the Father.

Mat 12:22 Then a demon-oppressed man who was blind and mute was brought to him, and he healed him, so that the man spoke and saw. 23 And all the people were amazed, and said, "Can this be the Son of David?" 24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, "It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons."
Mat 12:28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

When you connect Luke 11:20 with Matthew 12:28 then you get the understanding of what the finger of God is.
Luk 11:20 But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
Mat 12:28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.


Now the same is true with the Holy Spirit. We also have in the Bible two parallel teachings of the same subject one Matthew and one in Luke. Luk 12:11 And when they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and the authorities, do not be anxious about how you should defend yourself or what you should say, 12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."

Mat 10:19 When they deliver you over, do not be anxious how you are to speak or what you are to say, for what you are to say will be given to you in that hour. 20 For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

Likewise, when you connect to Matthew 10:20 with Luke 12:12 you get an understanding of what the Holy Spirit is. It is the Spirit of the Father. There is no separate being called the Holy Spirit. Again that's why the Holy Spirit is never worshiped, prayed to, or has a seat on a throne.


Paul
Last edited by Pierac on Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Shema Yisrael

Post by Pierac » Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:41 pm

Now to the Hebraic understanding of the Spirit.

One of the biggest problem for those holding that Holy Spirit is the third member of the Godhead is the Old Testament itself. The Old Testament is the foundation of our Bibles, the first 75% of the book. And an incontrovertible fact is that the Hebrew Bible does not support the idea that the Spirit of God is a distinct member of the Godhead at all. Even committed Trinitarians like George Ladd admit in his book, A Theology of the New Testament "The ruach Yahweh (Spirit of the Lord) in the Old Testament is not a separate, distinct entity; it is God's power-the personal activity in God's will achieving a moral and religious objective. God's ruach is the source of all that is alive, of all physical life. The Spirit of God is the active principle that proceeds from God and gives life to the physical world (Genesis 2:7). It is also the source of religious concerns, raising up charismatic leaders, whether judges, prophets, or kings. The ruach Yahweh (Spirit of God) is a term for the historic creative action of the one God which, though it defies logical analysis, is always God's action.

Dunn, in his book Christology in the Making adds, "The continuity of thought between Hebraic and Christian understanding of the Spirit is generally recognized. There can be little doubt that from the earliest stages of pre-Christian Judaism "spirit" (ruach) denoted power - the awful, mysterious force of the wind (ruach), of the breath (ruach) of life, of ecstatic inspiration (induced by divine ruach) in particular, "Spirit of God" denotes effective divine power In other words, on this understanding, Spirit of God is in no sense distinct from God, but is simply the power of God, God himself acting powerfully in nature and upon men."

It makes a big difference to our Western minds at least - right at the start of the Bible, whether we translate "this Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters or "a wind [breath] from God swept over the face of the waters" (Gen 1:2). The first possibility conveys to our modern minds the impression that the Spirit is an individual in "his" own right. Many Trinitarians read it that way. The second possibility suggest that God's energetic and creative presence was active.

Psalms 139 expresses this Hebrew parallelism beautifully: "where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence?" (v.7). Thus, the Spirit of God is a synonym for God's personal presence with us. N.H. Snaith in his book The Distinctive Ideas of the Old Testament explains, "The ruach-adonai [Spirit of the Lord] is the manifestation in human experience of the life-giving, energy-creating power of God. And, The Spirit of the Lord is the medium through which God exerts his controlling power." A brief look at a few more Old Testament verses will show this Hebrew parallelism, where the Spirit of God (Heb. ruach) can mean the breath, life, Spirit, presence, and most particularly - a word of Yahweh: (Job 26:4) (Job 27:3-4) (Job 32-8) (2Sam.23:2) (Prov.1:23) and, Isa 40:7 The grass withers, the flower fades when the breath of the LORD blows on it; surely the people are grass. 8 The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever.

It is vital not to rush over this. Many other Old Testament examples could be cited to show that spirit and breath are interchangeable. The fact that the 'spirit' and 'breath' are translations of the same Hebrew and Greek words points to the root meaning of spirit as God's creative power, the energy behind his utterance.

Another world-renowned known Anglican, J.I. Packer in his book Keep in Step with the Spirit (also a committed believer in the Trinity) acknowledges that the doctrine of the Holy Spirit's "distinct personhood is not expressed by the Old Testament writers." So then, by what reason then do these learned commentators come to the conclusion that the Holy Spirit is the third person of the Godhead? They admit that they stepped outside the boundaries of the Old Testament. They would have us believe that it is a doctrine newly revealed only in the New Testament. The New Testament does not alter the Hebrew concept of "spirit" as we will now see. The distinguished Bible scholar N. H. Snaith states that: "The New Testament pneuma (spirit) is used in all the ways in which the Hebrew ruach ( breath, wind, spirit) is used. It is used of the wind (John 3:8), of human breath, both ordinarily (2 Thessalonians 2:8) and of the breath which means life (Rev. 11:11). It is used of the vital principle in man (Luke 8:55, etc.), as opposed to 'flesh.'"

Luke writes concerning the Ministry of John the Baptist that: "It is he who will go as a forerunner before him and the Spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers back to the children, and the disobedient to the attitude of the righteous; so as to make ready a people prepared for Lord" (Luke 1:17). The Virgin Mary is told that "[the] Holy Spirit will come upon you and the power of the Most High will overshadowed you" (Luke 1:35). And concerning the promise of the coming of the Holy Spirit the risen Jesus predicts that the disciples are to wait in Jerusalem where they "shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you" (Acts 1:18). In these three Lukan passages we observe the interplay of the concepts of "power" and "spirit" precisely as found in the Old Testament.

This Hebrew concept is further seen in the famous passage where the apostle Paul burst out in praise to God. He does this by quoting from Elijah 40:13: "Oh, the depths of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and unfathomable His ways! [Now his Old Testament quotation] For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became his counselor?" (Rom.11:33-34) But when we compare his source in Isaiah we note that Paul has changed it slightly. Isaiah actually wrote, "Who has directed the spirit of the Lord, or as His counselor has informed him?"

What we see here is a typical Hebrew understanding: To have the mind of the Lord is to be directed by the Spirit. There are many New Testament examples of this interplay between "mind" and "spirit." In Philippians 2, Paul wants the Christian to be "of the same mind," which is to be "united in spirit, intent on one purpose"(v.2). On a personal level, how may I know that I am filled with the Holy Spirit? The answer is when I have the mind of God, the attitude that He has, the values that his word and espouses and above all the truth which it teaches!

Another passage of interest in this vein is 1 Corinthians 2:10-12.
1Co 2:10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who [Greek neuter "which"] is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. Here "the spirit of the man which is in him" is paralleled with "the Spirit of God" which is from God. It is quite clear that a person's spirit is not a separate person from himself, but is rather his/her own mind and inner thoughts. Just so, "the Spirit of God" refers to God's inner and personal centre, His mind and word, even His self-consciousness.

Spirit = Power = Mind = Presence = Breath = Wind = Word

It is quite evident that in the apostle's mind to be filled with the spirit is precisely the same thing as letting the word (teaching, message) of Christ direct our lives. This is simply to say that in John chapters 14 to 16, "the Spirit" that will come to help the apostles will be the post-resurrection revelation of Christ's message directed by the risen Christ to the world through the apostles.

The acid test as to whether I have "Jesus in my heart" is whether I have his words informing and empowering my life. If his Gospel-word is the motivating principle in my life, then I have the Spirit of God dwelling in me. Indeed, I have the Father and the Son. Hence Paul's vigorous warning that if anyone fails to demonstrate the presence of the words of Christ in his life, he is devoid of understanding (1 Tim 6:3). I am firmly convinced that the Scriptures are harmonious concerning the Spirit of God as being a power and word and mind of God in action. The Trinitarian assertion that the Holy Spirit is God himself is surely impossible to maintain when we note that nowhere in the Scripture is the Holy Spirit prayed to or worshiped. At the end of the last book of the Bible when the redeemed saints are in the presence of God and of Jesus Christ in glory it is not a strange omission that the third member of the Godhead has no seat of authority on the final throne?

Paul

Pierac
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Re: Shema Yisrael

Post by Pierac » Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:25 pm

What is eternal life?

John 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Joh 17:3
Αυτη δε εστιν η αιωνιος ζωη ινα γινωσκωσιν σε τον
SAME YET IS THE eonian LIFE THAT THEY-MAY-BE-KNOWING YOU THE

μονον αληθινον θεον και ον απεστειλας ιησουν χριστον
ONLY TRUE God AND WHOM YOU-commission JESUS ANOINTED


It is and was important to Jesus that we understand and know the only true God. That is what my search is all about. To seek and know the only true God, as I have found to be the Father! The Father tells us the only way we can know him is through his Son, Jesus!

Jesus who is our god (Lord/Master) through Agency as He sits at the right Hand of the one true God our Father. Jesus is not the source of his Deity, the source is the Father. Jesus is the mediator between the one God the Father and Man, as there is no other!

Paul

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Re: Shema Yisrael

Post by Pierac » Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:06 pm

Maybe it would be better to suggest, that everyone or someone post a scripture that they believe supports that Jesus is actually God. No disrespect to anyone's religious background, as I once believed in the Trinity too. The point I'm making is why do you believe, what you believe? Show me the scripture you use to back up your doctrine and I will show my research on that scripture. Don't be afraid!

Paul

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Re: Shema Yisrael

Post by Paidion » Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:56 pm

It is true that the Father is the "only true God", yet one must be careful to understand that the ONLY Individual begotten by God before all ages, is of the same essence as the only true God.

He reflects the glory of God and is the exact expression of His essence... Hebrews 1:3

The ESV renders it "the exact imprint of his nature". Thus Jesus was able to say to Philip, "He who has seen me has seen the Father."

He is an analogy which might help. From my pocket I pull out a picture of myself, and show it to you. Then I say, "I want to show you another picture". Then I take out another print of the same picture. You might reply, "That's the same picture!" But I tell you, "How can it be the same picture? I showed you the first picture, and now I showed you the second. They are two different pictures!" So who is right? Both of us are, depending upon what we mean by "the same picture" or "a different picture". Even if you have seen the only the first picture, then you have, in effect, also seen the second.

In a similar way, the Father and the Son are "the same God" and yet are two different divine Individuals and so are in that sense are "two Gods". They are equally divine, but two different Individuals. However, as Jesus affirmed, "The Father is greater than I." For the Father was the source of all things, including the Son. The Son was begotten, but the Father is unbegotten.

In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was Deity. John 1:1

In John 1:18, Jesus is referred to as "the only begotten God" in the earliest manuscripts, in papyrus 66 and payrus 75.
Paidion

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Re: Shema Yisrael

Post by RND » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:38 pm

Paidion wrote:It is true that the Father is the "only true God", yet one must be careful to understand that the ONLY Individual begotten by God before all ages, is of the same essence as the only true God.

He reflects the glory of God and is the exact expression of His essence... Hebrews 1:3

The ESV renders it "the exact imprint of his nature". Thus Jesus was able to say to Philip, "He who has seen me has seen the Father."

He is an analogy which might help. From my pocket I pull out a picture of myself, and show it to you. Then I say, "I want to show you another picture". Then I take out another print of the same picture. You might reply, "That's the same picture!" But I tell you, "How can it be the same picture? I showed you the first picture, and now I showed you the second. They are two different pictures!" So who is right? Both of us are, depending upon what we mean by "the same picture" or "a different picture". Even if you have seen the only the first picture, then you have, in effect, also seen the second.

In a similar way, the Father and the Son are "the same God" and yet are two different divine Individuals and so are in that sense are "two Gods". They are equally divine, but two different Individuals. However, as Jesus affirmed, "The Father is greater than I." For the Father was the source of all things, including the Son. The Son was begotten, but the Father is unbegotten.

In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was Deity. John 1:1

In John 1:18, Jesus is referred to as "the only begotten God" in the earliest manuscripts, in papyrus 66 and payrus 75.
That was an absolutely wonderful analogy Paidon. I may have to use that myself sometime. Excellent.
"Like Father, like Son."
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

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Post by Jill » Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:32 pm

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Re: Shema Yisrael

Post by Paidion » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:01 pm

Karen you wrote:The Holy Ghost (KJV) however, or the Spirit of Truth, is neither God the Father, nor Jesus Christ in whom the Father is well pleased.
Your statement does not seem to fit with Paul's words:

Now the Lord IS the Spirit... 2 Corinthians 3:17
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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