Shema Yisrael

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Paidion
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Re: Shema Yisrael

Post by Paidion » Wed Dec 24, 2008 9:00 pm

Pierac you wrote:So what scriptures leads you to believe Jesus pre-existed his virgin birth?


There are many, but this single exchange between Jesus and the Jewish leaders as recorded in John 8 should be sufficient.

56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."

When did Abraham see His day? We can read all about it in Genesis 18 and 19. Yahweh appeared to Abraham at the oaks of Mamre (Gen 18:1). Can the great Creator of all things appear in a specific location on earth? No, but His Son could, and did. Three "men" stood before Abraham (vs 2). One of the three, Yahweh, promised Abraham that Sarah would have a son (vs 10). Yahweh declared that He would destroy Sodom. Abraham bargained with Him. Yahweh finally agreed that He would not destroy the city if He found even 10 righteous people in it (vs 32). Two of the three "men" were angels, and went on ahead to Sodom (19:1)

We find in chapter 19 verse 24 that TWO INDIVIDUALS who share the name "Yahweh" are distinguished. One of them is in heaven. The other one is on earth, bringing destruction on Sodom and Gomorrah through the power of the One in heaven:

Then Yahweh rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Yahweh out of heaven ... Gen. 19:24

The Yahweh on earth, through whom the heavenly Yahweh destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, was the Son of God; the Yahweh in heaven was the Father.

57 Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"

The Jews certainly understood Jesus to have meant that Abraham and Jesus saw each other in that long past day. I believe they were right. Then Jesus confirms, that that is indeed the case. Indeed He affirms that He existed even BEFORE Abraham:

58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I tell you, before Abraham was, I am.”

Contrary to Christadelphian and Unitarian thought, Jesus was NOT merely saying that He existed as a plan in the mind of God. Abraham was not looking at God's future plan to beget His Son in the womb of Mary. Abraham was looking at a manifestation of the Son of God, who shared with the Father, the name "Yahweh".

59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

Why did the Jews want to stone Jesus? They would have no need to stone Him, if He had been merely stating that God had planned His birth long ago, and had shared His plan with Abraham. But His affirmation of His preëxistence was sufficient reason to stone Him!
Paidion

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Re: Shema Yisrael

Post by steve7150 » Sat Dec 27, 2008 3:27 pm

Pierac,

Many people don't believe in the trinity since it's difficult to comprehend and not clearly stated. I do think the trinity is true in that everything originates from the One God yet Jesus is the WORD of God and the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God yet their divinity comes from the Source or the Father therefore this Diety Substance is One Substance or from One Source as in One God.

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Re: Shema Yisrael

Post by Pierac » Sun Dec 28, 2008 1:40 pm

Homer wrote: This is hardly worth the time to reply, but I will. Surely you must know that the word logos is used in the scriptures in reference to more than one thing. Hint: do a word study on the parable of the sower. Take a look at Mark 7:13. And you might notice that Jesus is referred to by name sometimes.
darinhouston wrote:
Pierac wrote:Notice that they were beheaded for their testimony to Jesus AND for the logos of God. Jesus and the word of God are not the same thing.

The Logos is the plan, Jesus is the plan in action.
What difference does it make if you can distinguish in some respects between the logos and the man, Jesus? Scripture plainly tells us that the Word (logos) became flesh and dwelt among us (as Christ). So, even if they might be distinguishable in some abstract way, they shared the same ontological entity while Jesus was on the earth, it seems. In what form the Resurrected Christ takes and whether there was some form of separation of the logos again in the heavenly places, I can't tell you -- my understanding is that the logos changed once and forever when it took personal form as man and remains in a fixed, personal form as a resurrected man in the heavenly places awaiting as we are the final re-creation where He will return and dwell with us forever also in our resurrected bodies.
I will answer both post at once as it does make a big difference. As Jesus is the Logos in the flesh, this we all agree on. However, Jesus is not the Logos. The logos is God’s plan, and Jesus is God’s plan in the flesh.

Look back from my old post… So how does the Word (logos) become flesh in John 1:14? Let me use an example which most of us can relate to. We are all familiar with the expression, "was this baby planned?" Let's say it was planned. You and your wife had a plan to have a baby. You had a logos, a plan. Your plan (logos) became flesh the day that your baby was born. In the same way, God's plan of salvation for us became a reality, became flesh, when Jesus was born.

This is how Jesus, is the Son of God, and not God as John teaches in John 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

John never wrote about the Logos so you would believe Jesus is God, as he clearly explains in John 20:31. John could have clearly written these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is God, but John did not write this did he? All scripture must fit as a whole, not parts taken out of their Hebraic context



Paul

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Re: Shema Yisrael

Post by Pierac » Sun Dec 28, 2008 1:57 pm

Priestly1 wrote:"Sh'ma yisro'el: Yahoweh Elohenu, Yahowah echod!"


"Listen Israel! Jehovah is your God! Jehovah alone!" or "Listen israel! Jehovah your Deity, Jehovah is Unified!"

Echod = A composite unity...a cluster.

Achad = A modan..a unit.

Vowel signs make the difference.....but the Greek is clear. YHVH alone is our God....no one else.


I am a Judeo-Christian. YHVH is a single Divine Being (Gk: Ousia) who is eternally manifested in Three distinct sentient States of existence (Gk: Hypostasois). Persons is a poor translation in English. God is not a supreme Siamese Triplet, nor three supreme identical Twins (a species), nor a supreme being who suffers with multiple personality disorder! YHVH is Three eternal Realities (hypostasies) of a single Divine Being (ousia).

I am a Trinitarian..a Paradox...yes. But not an inconsistancy! The Sun is a Single Object which is the unseen Source, the visible Orb and the invisible Wind. So too YHVH is the eternal Father who is the unseen Source (Arche) of His visible Word (Logos = form and Image) and His invisible Spirit. The Father, His Word and His Spirit are undivided, yet distinct...One God in three eternal conscious states. God is eternally Father because He eternally generates (i.e. begets) His Son the Word.

As the Sun is source, Orb and Wind...so YHVH God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Each are distinct, yet all are One in Being. The Father is the Source of His Word (Son) and His Spirit (Breath). The Father alone has no Source. As you have a Head (e.i. Source) which is united to your Right Hand (i.e. Word) and your Left Hand (i.e. Spirit)...so too YHVH God created and maintains all things with His All Powerful Word and Spirit...so too you create what you will with your hands................neither does anything on its own....yet each is distinct from your head. Yet God's distictions are equal in divine glory, majesty and power.....each is self conscious...yet there is but One Divine Mind and Being.


A Mystery and Paradox does not mean an illogical reality unknown and unknowable.....just nut fully understood in our limited minds...we can only aproximate what has been revealed with human terms and examples...such as the Nicaea-Constantinoplaean Creed (321 - 381 CE).

Merry Christmas!

Rev. Ken (priestly1@hotmail.com)

Hi Ken,

Then why did the concept of who God is (Trinity) take hundreds of years to come about?


A brief history of the Church after Nicaea

You must realize that in the early days Greek philosophy was the major thought pattern of the civilized world. Anyone who was anyone was educated in Greek philosophy. Another reason why these philosophies were so quick to influence early Christianity is that in the beginning of the church, the leaders were for the most part Jewish, with the Jewish concept of God.

"The Jews conceive God as an absolutely simple unity (inferring absolutely no constituent divisions)." (Jewish Thought 6/12/96)

When Christianity started spreading, the leaders of the churches were now Gentiles who had converted to Christianity. These people, for the most part, had been educated in Greek philosophies in their schools and universities. As educated persons, they of course wanted to find a place for their new religious beliefs within the philosophical framework they had already acquired. So when they read Hebrew Scriptures, they could not help injecting Greek philosophical meanings into them.

Is not difficult to observe the early influence of the Greek philosophers on the Church fathers. Clement of Alexandria was so steep in pagan philosophy that he explained, “Greek philosophy purges the soul, and prepares it beforehand for the reception of faith, on which the truth builds up the edifice of Gnosis.” (Clement of Alexandria, xia iii).

For philosophy was a ‘schoolmaster’ to bring the Greek mind to Christ, as the law brought the Hebrews. Thus philosophy was a preparation, paving the way towards perfection in Christ.” Clement of Alexandria (c.200), Stromateis, I.v.28


The Encyclopedia Britannica says concerning Christian Platonist:

"They did not believe that truth could conflict with truth and were confident that all that was rationally certain in Platonic speculation would prove to be in perfect accordance with the Christian revelation. Their unhistorical approach and unscholarly methods of exegesis of texts, both pagan and Christian, facilitated this confidence."

There was also the felt need of some Christians with Greek philosophical training to express Christianity in those terms, both for their own intellectual satisfaction and in order to convert educated pagans.

What is needed today is to remove all the Greek influence from what is called modern day Christianity, and return to the Christianity that was preached by Jesus and his Apostles.

The Council of Nicaea, in 325 AD., made "Jesus of the same substance as God." This is not the Trinitarian doctrine we know of today, but it was a start. Fifty-six years later, at the Council of Constantinople in 381 AD., the Holy Spirit was added to the formula, bringing to life the modern day Trinity. One can easily see that even at Nicaea the Trinity was not an established doctrine by the absence of the Holy Spirit. Trinitarians will argue that the belief in a triune God was there from the Apostles, and that it was formalized as dogma at Nicaea and Constantinople. But the fact is that the New Testament does not anywhere teach the doctrine of the Trinity. The Doctrine of the Trinity, was not an established doctrine from Apostolic times, but a slowly developing idea that took over three hundred years to formalize.


325 AD - Constantine convenes the Council of Nicaea in order to develop a statement of faith that can unify the church. The Nicene Creed is written, declaring that "the Father and the Son are of the same substance" (homoousios). Emperor Constantine who was also the high priest of the pagan religion of the Unconquered Sun presided over this council. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica:

"Constantine himself presided, actively guiding the discussions and personally proposed the crucial formula expressing the relationship of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council. "of one substance with the Father."

The American Academic Encyclopedia states:

"Although this was not Constantine's first attempt to reconcile factions in Christianity, it was the first time he had used the imperial office to IMPOSE a settlement."

At the end of this council, Constantine sided with Athanasius over Arius and exiled Arius to Illyria.

328 AD - Athanasius becomes bishop of Alexandria.

328 AD - Constantine recalls Arius from Illyria.

335 AD - Constantine now sides with Arius and exiles Athanasius to Trier.

337 AD - A new emperor, Contantius, orders the return of Athanasius to Alexandria.

339 AD - Athanasius flees Alexandria in anticipation of being expelled.

341 AD - Two councils are held in Antioch this year. During this council, the First, Second, and Third Arian Confessions are written, thereby beginning the attempt to produce a formal doctrine of faith to oppose the Nicene Creed.

343 AD - At the Council of Sardica, Eastern Bishops demand the removal of Athanasius.

346 AD - Athanasius is restored to Alexandria.

351 AD - A second anti - Nicene council is held in Sirmium.

353 AD - A council is held at Aries during Autumn that is directed against Athanasius.

355 AD - A council is held in Milan. Athanasius is again condemned.

356 AD - Athanasius is deposed on February 8th, beginning his third exile.

357 AD - Third Council of Sirmium is convened. Both homoousios and homoiousios are avoided as unbiblical, and it is agreed that the Father is greater than His subordinate Son.

359 AD - The Synod of Seleucia is held which affirms that Christ is "like the Father," It does not however, specify how the Son is like the Father.

361 AD - A council is held in Antioch to affirm Arius' positions.

380 AD - Emperor Theodosius the Great declares Christianity the official state religion of the empire.

381 AD - The First Council of Constantinople is held to review the controversy since Nicaea. Emperor Theodosius the Great establishes the creed of Nicaea as the standard for his realm. The Nicene Creed is re-evaluated and accepted with the addition of clauses on the Holy Spirit and other matters. (History of Arian Controversy)

If you believe that Nicaea just formalized the prevalent teaching of the church, then there really should not have been any conflicts. Why should there be? If it were the established teaching of the church, then you would expect people to either accept it, or not be Christians. However, it was not the established teaching, and when some faction of the church tried to make it official, the result was major conflict.

It was mainly a theological power grab by certain factions of the church. The major complication throughout all this was that the emperors were involved. At Nicaea it was Constantine that decided the outcome. Then as you can see, we have the flip-flopping of opinion with the result that Athanasius is exiled and recalled depending on who is in power. We even have in 357 AD the declaration that homoousios and homoiousios are unbiblical, and that the Father is greater than His subordinate Son. This is 180 degrees from Nicaea. It is definitely not the Trinitarian formula.

In 380 AD Emperor Thedosius declares Christianity the state religion. One can come to the conclusion that whichever way Theodosius favors, is the way in which it is going to end. This is exactly what happened next. In 381 AD the struggle was finally ended by the current emperor, Theodosius the Great, who favored the Nicene position. Just like at Nicaea, the EMPEROR again decided it. The emperors were dictating the theology of the church. The big difference now was that there was not going to be any more changing sides. It was now the state religion. You cannot make Christianity the state religion and then change its beliefs every few years, it would undermine its credibility as the true faith. The Trinity was now the orthodox position, and the state was willing to back it up. Debates however, would continue for years to come.

This does not include the different teachings of Origen, Tertullian, and other Church fathers who all held different beliefs about the Trinity. The Trinity was a docterine that developed over hundreds of years. It was not the teaching of the early Church.
Paul

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Re: Shema Yisrael

Post by Pierac » Sun Dec 28, 2008 2:05 pm

Paidion wrote:
Pierac you wrote:So what scriptures leads you to believe Jesus pre-existed his virgin birth?


There are many, but this single exchange between Jesus and the Jewish leaders as recorded in John 8 should be sufficient.

56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."

When did Abraham see His day? We can read all about it in Genesis 18 and 19. Yahweh appeared to Abraham at the oaks of Mamre (Gen 18:1). Can the great Creator of all things appear in a specific location on earth? No, but His Son could, and did. Three "men" stood before Abraham (vs 2). One of the three, Yahweh, promised Abraham that Sarah would have a son (vs 10). Yahweh declared that He would destroy Sodom. Abraham bargained with Him. Yahweh finally agreed that He would not destroy the city if He found even 10 righteous people in it (vs 32). Two of the three "men" were angels, and went on ahead to Sodom (19:1)

We find in chapter 19 verse 24 that TWO INDIVIDUALS who share the name "Yahweh" are distinguished. One of them is in heaven. The other one is on earth, bringing destruction on Sodom and Gomorrah through the power of the One in heaven:

Then Yahweh rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Yahweh out of heaven ... Gen. 19:24

The Yahweh on earth, through whom the heavenly Yahweh destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, was the Son of God; the Yahweh in heaven was the Father.

57 Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"

The Jews certainly understood Jesus to have meant that Abraham and Jesus saw each other in that long past day. I believe they were right. Then Jesus confirms, that that is indeed the case. Indeed He affirms that He existed even BEFORE Abraham:

58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I tell you, before Abraham was, I am.”

Contrary to Christadelphian and Unitarian thought, Jesus was NOT merely saying that He existed as a plan in the mind of God. Abraham was not looking at God's future plan to beget His Son in the womb of Mary. Abraham was looking at a manifestation of the Son of God, who shared with the Father, the name "Yahweh".

59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

Why did the Jews want to stone Jesus? They would have no need to stone Him, if He had been merely stating that God had planned His birth long ago, and had shared His plan with Abraham. But His affirmation of His preëxistence was sufficient reason to stone Him!
I explained this to RND, but will bring it over to my thread...

I Am

But what about the great "I Am him" statement of Jesus? Especially that classic one in John 8:58 where Jesus says, "Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was born I am"? Surely here Jesus makes the same claim for himself that Jehovah God made back in Exodus 3 where the LORD says to Moses at the burning Bush "I Am Who I Am." Surely Jesus is claiming to be the I AM of the Old Testament as Trinitarian belief asserts?

This expression from Jesus' lips "I am" (Greek ego eimi) occurs throughout the Gospel of John and in no other text in John can it mean I AM, the God of the Old Testament.

Go back to John 4:25-26 for instance. The woman at the well said to Jesus, "I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ); when that one comes, he will declare all things to us." And Jesus said to her, "I who speak with you am he." You will notice that in most Bibles that word he is in italics. This means that the translators have correctly supplied a word in English that is not in the Greek but that nevertheless makes the intended sense quite clear. Here Jesus says to the woman - in the context of her question about the Messiah - that he is the Messiah, the Christ. "I who speak to you am he." In the Greek it reads ego eimi. Jesus simply says I am he, the Messiah. Definitely not "I am is the one speaking to you!"

In John 9 Jesus heals the blind man. Is this really the beggar who used to sit groping in the dark? Some people said, "Yes, it's him all right." Other said, "No, he just looks like him." But the beggar says, " ego eimi!" And the translators have no problem writing, "I am the one." So why aren't the translators consistent? Why not capitalize what this man says as I AM? Because it is clear that he is not claiming to be the God of the Old Testament. Saying "I am" (ego eimi) does not make somebody God in the Bible!

What Jesus is saying is simply "Before Abraham was born, I am he," that is, "I am the Messiah."

Notice the context in John 8:56 where Jesus says, "Abraham rejoiced to see my day." By faith Abraham looked forward and saw the coming Messiah before he came in history. He believed the promise that God would send the Promised One. On the other hand these Jews did not believe that Jesus was their Messiah. They were claiming to be Abraham's descendents. Jesus said that this was impossible for they did not recognize him as their Messiah. But Jesus asserts that even before Abraham was born, he is the One who was always in God's plan. This Abraham believe and saw. The Messiah preexisted in God's plan and therefore in Abraham's believing mind, because he trusted the promise of God. Jesus positively did not say, before Abraham was, I was." Also, Jesus did not say, "Before Abraham was, I AM WHAT I AM."

The conclusion is inevitable. Jesus' claim "Before Abraham was born, I am he" is the straightforward claim that he is the long promised one, the Messiah, the One in question. Jesus is the Savior in God's promise even before Abraham was born.

The Jewish leaders were very well aware of what Jesus was saying about himself! Jesus Was not claiming to be God but the Son of God as Shown in John 19:6. They give the very reason they wanted Him dead!

John 19:6 When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him. 7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.


Paul

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Re: Shema Yisrael

Post by Paidion » Sun Dec 28, 2008 8:06 pm

Paul, it would be good scholarship on your part if you would actually READ my post! If you do that, you would know that I didn't make the ego eimi argument to try to prove that Jesus is God the Father. I do not believe that Jesus is God the Father. Although I do believe He and His Father share the name "Yahweh", They are two different divine Individuals. I am quite aware that ego eimi is used in many different ways and that Jesus isn't using it here to indicate that He is the "Great I am" of the Old Testament. So your reply does not address my post in any way. Yes, you used it for RND, and it was appropriate to do so. But I am a different person from RND, and have not in any way appealed to the ego eimi argument.
Paidion

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Re: Shema Yisrael

Post by Pierac » Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:19 pm

Paidion wrote:Paul, it would be good scholarship on your part if you would actually READ my post! If you do that, you would know that I didn't make the ego eimi argument to try to prove that Jesus is God the Father. I do not believe that Jesus is God the Father. Although I do believe He and His Father share the name "Yahweh", They are two different divine Individuals. I am quite aware that ego eimi is used in many different ways and that Jesus isn't using it here to indicate that He is the "Great I am" of the Old Testament. So your reply does not address my post in any way. Yes, you used it for RND, and it was appropriate to do so. But I am a different person from RND, and have not in any way appealed to the ego eimi argument.
My mistake my friend.

I was a way for a few days and tried to respond to multiple threads and topics. I have been approached so many times on this topic that I went in to Auto mode. This is why I like to limit my post to a single thread. Even though, I may be younger, I'm having trouble keeping up with multiple threads on multiple forums. My apologies indeed, as I only glanced at your post, as my own thread was the last of the day that I chose to respond too! :oops:


Paul

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Re: Shema Yisrael

Post by Pierac » Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:36 pm

Now paidion let's get back to your views... ;)
Paidion wrote:I do believe He (Jesus) and His Father share the name "Yahweh", They are two different divine Individuals.
Are you implying TWO GODS?

From the start of Judaism and later Christianity, the most famous aspect and unique characteristic of the two religions is the fact that they were, and still are monotheistic. Christianity is really the continuation of Judaism. Both religions believe in one, and only one unbegotten God, creator of the universe. There are no other gods in these two faiths.

Isaiah 44:6 – "Thus says the LORD... there is no God but me."

Isaiah 45:5 – "I am the LORD and there is no other, there is no God besides me."

Isaiah 45:6 – "Men may know that there is none besides me. I am the LORD, there is no other."

No one will contest that to a Jew or a Christian, there is only one God. Anything else would simply be considered polytheism. The majority of Christianity believes in one God, but a God that is plural in makeup. There are three persons that constitute this one God. They are three, but yet, they are still all the one God. There is: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

In this post I will be concerned primarily with Trinitarian Christianity’s view of God. Specifically, God the Son. (I say this because Your not quite on this level)

We all know that God the Son has a Father (God the Father). But the question that must be asked and answered is: can God the Son have a God? Every pastor that I have ever asked this question to has always said "Of course not!" But is that the answer given in Scripture? No, on the contrary. As you will see, the prophesied Messiah in the Old Testament is said to have a God. Then you will see that Jesus the Messiah fulfills those prophesies because he most definitely has a God. If you come to the conclusion that Jesus has a God, then it might be time to rethink and research the Doctrine of the Trinity. Because if God the Son has a God, then there are TWO GODS!

To make this as simple as possible, I am not going to list the huge amount of Scriptures which have God (not "Father") and Jesus in the same sentence, or Scriptures that have God speaking to Jesus, or Jesus speaking to God. We will only be concerned with Scriptures that prove that Jesus has a God.

OLD TESTAMENT MESSIANIC PROPHESIES

Psalm 89:26-28 – "He (the Messiah) shall say of me. "You are my father, my God, my rock, my savior". And I will make him the firstborn."

Micah 5:3-4 – "He (the Messiah) shall stand firm and shepherd his flock by the strength of the LORD, in the Majestic name of the LORD, his God."

Psalm 22:10-11 – "To you I was committed at birth. From my mother’s womb you are my God."

NEW TESTAMENT

Jesus Speaking:
John 20:17 – "I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."

Matthew 27:46 – "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"

Revelation 3:12 – "Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of [b my God[/b]. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God."

Revelation 3:2 – "for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God."


Paul:
Ephesians 1:3 – "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Ephesians 1:17 – "I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father..."

2 Corinthians 1:3 – "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

2 Corinthians 11:31 – "The God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ knows, He who is blessed forever, that I do not lie."

Romans 15:6 – "that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."


Peter:
1 Peter 1:3 – "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."


John:
Revelation 1:6 – "To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, who has made us into a kingdom, priests for his God and Father."

When one reads the preceding verses, there is one thing that is a fact. That Jesus Christ has a God. Jesus speaks of his God, Peter Paul and John mention the God of Jesus Christ. Are they all mistaken? Are we to believe that all these verses are misprints? Are we to suppose that theologians several centuries after Christ knew more about Jesus than Jesus and his Apostles? There is no way around it.

The New American Bible (a Roman Catholic Bible) in a section discussing biblical revelation says,

"It is the very same God who reveals Himself in so many richly divergent ways on every page of the Scriptures. The God of Abraham and Moses and David is the God of Jesus of Nazareth."

Everyone in Jesus’ day knew that Jesus had a God. Even later, people in Rome who did not believe in Jesus knew that he had a God.

So why do we never hear a sermon or anything else on the God of Jesus Christ?
The reason is that people who believe in the Trinity cannot explain this obvious fact. They have absolutely no explanation for it. They claim that God the Son cannot have a God because that would mean that there are two Gods. But there it is in black and white. Jesus has a God. Are you going to take man’s word over God’s word?

Hopefully not. If Jesus has a God, there is absolutely no way that the Doctrine of the Trinity can stand without violating the most basic principle of Christianity; that there is only ONE God! (Yes, I know you don't follow this)

So does that make Trinitarians and anyone else paidion who thinks that Jesus is God polytheists? It sure does! One God Father (divine) plus One God Son (divine) equals TWO GODS.

"Now this is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ"
(John 17:3). Jesus’ own words. God bless you.


Paul

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Re: Shema Yisrael

Post by RND » Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:06 pm

Paul, ever think of shortening your posts? Brevity is the sign of wit.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

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Re: Shema Yisrael

Post by Pierac » Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:34 pm

RND wrote:Paul, ever think of shortening your posts? Brevity is the sign of wit.
What do you mean? You are reading my short post! ;) I would not think 3 min of your time not to be too excessive. However, I guess it all depends on your grade level and on how well and fast you can read??? :oops:

Paul

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