The Trinity

[RV]

Like many areas of study, I'm trying to wipe the slate clean and just take a fresh look at the trinity and ignore my paradigms.

I wanted to get all of your thoughts and feedback.

I read the scriptures and wonder if I would have walked away forming the doctrine of the trinity if it hadn't been handed down to me.

It's always been one of those areas for me where I'm just not sure.

It's taken a lot for me to rethink it as I've been scared to do so. Thinking I may be going off the deep end.

Anyway... I've read a few of the post and just wanted to start a fresh discussion.

What are your thoughts these days?

Thanks,

RV

[Suzana]

Hi RV,

“We believe in one eternal God who is the Creator of all things. He exists in three Persons: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.”

“The three persons of the Godhead are coequal and co-eternal.”

“Three in One”

As I understand it, that’s the doctrine of the trinity (in a nutshell); I personally don't affirm belief in it as such. Nor do I think that the doctrine, as it stands, takes into account all the available scriptures.


e.g.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
and
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made.
and
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

but

Joh 14:28 You have heard how I said to you, I go away and I am coming to you again. If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, I go to the Father, for My Father is greater than I.
and
Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
and
1Co 15:24 then is the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He makes to cease all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:28 But when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subject to Him who has subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all things in all.

As to the Holy Spirit, the Bible nowhere designates as 'God the Holy Spirit', so why do we? I think I’ve usually held a concept or understanding similar to what Darin recently expressed in another post:
‘I see it [the Holy Spirit] not as a separate "impersonal" force but as possibly the very spiritual essence of Christ Himself or the Father Himself (or both).’ (here)

Basically, I’ve come to the conclusion that our finite minds are unable to grasp the mystery of the “Godhead”, or adequately ‘explain the unexplainable’, or the seeming contradictions (or paradoxes?).
Therefore I also think it’s wrong that this doctrine has traditionally been made such a pivotal criterion of orthodoxy.

[mattrose]

I'm somewhat close to Suzana on this subject. I believe in the Trinity (I take no real issue with the creeds, though I prefer to use the biblical language). I don't think we should disassociate from other followers of Christ just b/c they feel uneasy about the wording of the creeds.

I don't think, however, that we should be very surprised by the lack of trinitarian doctrinal development in the New Testament. The NT writers were not writing creeds (Though they may have quoted some early creed-type statements). They weren't writing articles for theological journals either. They were simply telling the story (in the gospels) and applying the story (in the epistles). I think there is more than enough reason to take from the story that Jesus and the Holy Spirit share a mysterious unity with the Father.

[RV]

Thanks for the thoughts Mattrose & Suzana.

Anyone else have some thoughts on this?

I've not got much to add right now as I'm sorting through my own thoughts and study on this.

Do either of you pray to Jesus at this point, or are you simply coming to the Father in Jesus' name?

I may be wrong, but it seemed like all the N.T. writers went to the Father, and instructed us to do the same.

Do I have that accurate?

[mattrose]

That's my observation as well.

I pray to the Father. I think the popular thought of praying to the Father in the Son through the Spirit is a good one.

[darinhouston]

There is a thread on here about "praying to Jesus" and what is prayer, etc.

What is "Prayer"?
http://www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=2942

[RV]

What do you guys think of the attributes that Jesus seems to share with the Father, that only the God could have? He seems to be able to be in all places at all times. Matt 18:20 for example.

[Suzana]

I think Jesus is able to do this in the same way as the Father – through the Holy Spirit. Jesus said (John 4:24) that God is Spirit.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you orphans; I am coming to you.

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Joh 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and will remind you of all things which I said to you.

[RV]

Thanks Suzana...

I've seen some chatter about the Spirit being a force and not a person.

Although it's true that objects are often refered to as he or she, the Spirit seems to lead and direct and to teach.

What are your thoughts? Anyone...

[steve7150]

I read the scriptures and wonder if I would have walked away forming the doctrine of the trinity if it hadn't been handed down to me.

It's always been one of those areas for me where I'm just not sure.







It's hard to reason but it appears Jesus is diety and the Holy Spirit is a person yet we have one true God. Therefore my understanding is the diety of Jesus and the Holy Spirit originates from the Father because they are both "of God" as in "Word of God" and "Spirit of God."