Something I wrote in a letter to a friend.

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Perry
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Something I wrote in a letter to a friend.

Post by Perry » Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:38 am

I know we can go around and around and around on trinitarian theology. That's not really what I'm interested in here. Instead, I'd like to know your opinions about something I wrote to a friend. He and I both come from a background that denied the trinity. My friend now embraces the trinity whole-heartedly, and I guess it's fair to describe me as embracing it half-heartedly. Perhaps I was a bit heavy-handed with my description of orthodoxy.

There are probably some steve-isms in here, especially in the last paragraph.
This idea of the dual nature of God (that He is one, and yet manifests as separate persons) is mysterious, but no more mysterious than that He always existed, and that nothing caused Him to exist. Of course, if something had caused Him to exist, then the question just transfers back a generation into, what caused the thing that caused Him to exist, to exist. (Mathematically this is described as the impossibility of instantiating an infinite. God, it seems, is just such an instantiation.)

So we are forced to admit that there are things about God that we can not understand or describe logically. The oneness of God and the distinctness of the God Persons as simultaneous truths is just such a mystery. Whether this truth is best described by the doctrine called “The Trinity”, I can’t say. It may be that it is.

My chief objection to the Trinitarian theology is this: Trinitarians by and large, it seems to me, make of this doctrine a litmus test. If you adhere to it, (more accurately if you profess to adhere to the Nicene creed) you get a pass. If you question it, then you’re at best border-line, probably a heretic, and, at worst, part of a cult.

I think this is an arbitrary and foolish distinction to make and potentially damaging to the body of Christ. I don’t think there’s anyone, even the proponents of the doctrine, who suggests that it’s simply and easily (or perhaps even possibly) comprehended. Paul referred to it as a great mystery. I’ve seen lengthy discussions from intelligent, and, to my mind, godly folk on different sides of this debate. Inevitably they have to draw upon the minutia of techniques for translating Greek words and idioms in order to make their respective points. They point to the creeds of men, and to circumstantial evidences about what the early church believed.

Both sides do this with equal conviction that they are proving their point.

Apparently, at one point, what is generally considered orthodoxy (i.e. conformance to faith as described by the creeds of those who declare for themselves the authority to make ecumenical decrees) hung by the thread of a single man’s vote. I just can’t see God judging non-Trinitarians as harshly as most Trinitarians seem to, when there’s so much room for debate on the details.

To understand and know God, is not necessarily to understand and know everything about Him. This is similar to how I can understand and know my wife, without knowing how her pituitary gland functions. When we ourselves want to be known and understood, it's not typically our clinical, medical, biological make up that we want others to relate to. A doctor can know all of those things without caring one whit about us as individuals. We want others to understand us as thinking, feeling, cognitive people. We want them to know what we like, and dislike, how we think, what our feelings are. I think God is more concerned with us knowing those kinds of things about Him than whether He’s three-in-one-in-three-in-one-in...

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jeremiah
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Re: Something I wrote in a letter to a friend.

Post by jeremiah » Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:34 pm

good morning perry,
your thoughts sound fair handed to me. regarding many who generally dismiss non trinitarians as heretics, i see it too. though at the end of the day i would call myself a trinitarian, if asked for a formula of how it works, you got me. i heard it said "water comes in three flavors: solid, liquid, and gas. and then they smile as if it's supposed to be obvious. but it seems to me a modalist could say the same thing if he wanted to. to me that analogy would seem more obviously like what my modalist brothers say. but i think this is only a symptom of a bigger problem. that is, lack of love, and a glut of uptight presumption(<---this may be the wrong word..?) in general communion and conversation with other disciples of Christ. (of course, i don't mean this is our only problem :oops:) i think some folks have a hard time differentiating between their understanding [or maybe their definition] of God, and God himself. we're told to be of one mind and one heart, and to speak the same thing. too often, it looks as if this translates into "you must say it the way i do, with the same number of syllables, and don't you dare try to change the inflection. if you do, we can't hang out because paul said you just want to argue about words. and therefore you suppose that godliness is financial gain."

i know that's pretty extreme, but i have observed this not a few times at church. unsurprisingly, in my own heart. as well. many times, my wife and i have a real hard time communicating something to each other. sometimes it eventually becomes clear only semantics are our problem. others it's a genuine disagreement, but i've learned that even in those times of real friction it would be wrong for me to do anything but remember that she is my partner and best friend, which trumps anything i might think i should say. i must admit, it was by seeing how hurtful my words to my wife have been at times that i was shown what i think to be one small solution. it occurred to me how pointless and utterly unfruitful my calm but abrasive rebuttals to my precious wife's thoughts were. it was as if God was asking me if i wanted to wastefully pass the time in anger and frustration towards her, or bountifully grow with her. then it hit me all at once how she's not the work of my hands, but instead, we're both the work of his hands. and my part was to remain faithfully connected to her at all costs. i think it's similar with us as the body of Christ. unfortunately for me, as easy as it is to presume i know my wife's heart and intentions, it can be as breathing to fall into the same error with someone i only see a few days a week. but i think, in light of our oneness in Christ, there is a sense in which it's more important for me to maintain that same connection with those in Christ.

most of the time, my family and i attend a calvary chapel. we're not dispensationalist or pre millenial. but one of the main reasons we go their is how clear it is that they love. though i do at times endure what i consider eschatological indoctrination, i think it's more important for me to learn how to love those that Christ does and grow with them in our knowledge of him, than to find another church that i may be more agreeable with theologically. on a lighter note, and if the folks at our church ever did learn what i think about certain things, they'll at least have proof that i'm not some wolf trying to undermine the pastor, we've been there a couple years and have yet to argue with anyone about our differences. i thank God for a few other brothers and sisters we know here in town who we can hang out with and be totally transparent with each other, which makes for interesting and fruitful times.

i know i went out a tangent perry, but i hope it's still a blessing nonetheless. and i totally agree with your last statement in the letter.

grace and peace...
Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

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Perry
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Re: Something I wrote in a letter to a friend.

Post by Perry » Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:25 pm

Thanks for your comments, Jeremiah.

Interestingly, I was listening to the "Straight Thinking" podcast last light, and Kenneth Samples was talking about the trinity. He provided a prime example of just the kind of thinking I was describing. In the podcast he mentioned that he and his wife were discussing trinitarian theology and at one point his wife admitted, "I believe I may have been thinking of the trinity in modalist terms", to which Samples replied, "Oh my goodness, I married a modalist!" He meant this to be somewhat tongue in cheek, I think, but it betrays a knee-jerk reaction against anyone who has different opinions on this matter.

I've been studying the trinity doctrine off and on for many years. I find it frustrating to study, though, while constantly being called a heretic because I have doubts about it.

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backwoodsman
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Re: Something I wrote in a letter to a friend.

Post by backwoodsman » Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:32 pm

Perry wrote:My chief objection to the Trinitarian theology is this: Trinitarians by and large, it seems to me, make of this doctrine a litmus test. If you adhere to it, (more accurately if you profess to adhere to the Nicene creed) you get a pass. If you question it, then you’re at best border-line, probably a heretic, and, at worst, part of a cult.
My experience has been, if anything, the reverse. As with many other issues, there's certainly no shortage of people on either side that consider the other side heretics. But in my experience, those modalists with whom I've been acquainted have been much more likely to consider Trinitarians unsaved simply because they're Trinitarians, than the reverse. Either way, it has a lot more to do with a person's attitude toward spiritual things than with their view on a particular issue like the Trinity.

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jeremiah
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Re: Something I wrote in a letter to a friend.

Post by jeremiah » Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:40 pm

backwoodsman wrote:...it has a lot more to do with a person's attitude toward spiritual things than with their view on a particular issue...
right on man, that's the simple truth.
grace and peace...
Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

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Perry
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Re: Something I wrote in a letter to a friend.

Post by Perry » Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:14 am

backwoodsman wrote:My experience has been, if anything, the reverse.
That's interesting to hear you say. (I'm not a modalist by the way. I'm not sure how I would characterize myself when it comes to trinitiarian theology... probably I'm more of an orthodox trinitarian than anything else. It's not the doctrine that gets me, but rather, the importance placed on it.)

My wife and I were speaking earlier this evening about differing views Christians hold with regard to hell. At one point she made the apt observation that... "I'm afraid there are too many Christians who assume that if your view of hell isn't the same as theirs, then it means you're going there." Point being, it's not only the doctrine of the trinity that Christians can use to be exclusive. I'll certainly admit that I'm probably a bit more sensitive to the trinitarian issues than some others. I imagine eschatology, as jeremiah alluded to, is a big one as well.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "a person's attitude towards spiritual things". I certainly don't think that holding one doctrinal view or another makes a person either more spiritual or less spiritual. (Though I suppose it may depend on the doctrine in question.)

I would say it has more to do with our desire to be loving and our willingness to be as inclusive as our doctrinal beliefs will allow us to be. That's not to say that we should never draw lines that separate us from fellowship with one another, but rather, that such lines should always be drawn reluctantly and with a certain amount of solemnity and grief. I don't think the trinity doctrine is an occasion for such a line, regardless on which side of it one finds oneself.

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