The Great Debate: Is Jesus God?

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Paidion
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Re: The Great Debate: Is Jesus God?

Post by Paidion » Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:21 pm

Yes, I too, have no problem in affirming that Jesus is deity. Indeed, that is precisely what John 1:1 affirms when it says that the Logos was theos, that is, if you agree that the Logos was, in fact the Son of God. Some say the logos was but the mind of God of something similar. But when I continue to read verses 2-12, it seems obvious to me that the Logos is the Son of God Himself, called "the Logos" because He was the expression of God.

My view is that to affirm Jesus is deity is tantamount to saying that He is divine. I know that when we use the term "humanity" we usually use it to refer to ALL of mankind. So to indicate my humanity, I wouldn't say "I am humanity", but rather "I am human." So in modern parlance, perhaps in order to indicate Jesus' deity, it would be better to say that Jesus is divine, rather than "Jesus is deity." But just as my humanity indicates that I am one of that order of being called "man", so does Christ's deity indicate that He is one of that order of being called "God." So I think that the New Testament used "God" in two distinct ways. Usually it refers to the Father alone — the One God. But a few times, such as the second use of "God" in John 1:1, it refers to an order of being. I am human because a pair of humans begat me (or generated me). Jesus is divine because the Father begat Him (or generated Him).

For in [Christ] the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily.(Colossians 2:9 RSV)
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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darinhouston
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Re: The Great Debate: Is Jesus God?

Post by darinhouston » Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:34 pm

Perry wrote:By saying this, I don't mean to imply that you or Paidion are in any way attempting to denigrate the person of Christ, or that you somehow have less respect for the person of Christ than I do. I don't think that at all, but I can see how jriccitelli might.
Thanks, Perry, you're absolutely right -- I am only seeking Truth as I know Paidion is, and nothing is motivated in any way to denigrate Jesus in any way that He wouldn't intend if He were here to ask. No matter what position I take, it will include the absolutely right and duty to honor, respect, praise, and worship Him whether as God or as one sufficiently one with God or as one God has otherwise determined is deserving of that worship. I think Scripture is clear on that ground. I also agree wholeheartedly with you that the main issue is primacy -- this issue is a hallmark of authentic Christianity these days and I almost didn't get my son into his Christian school due to a creedal requirement surrounding the Trinity -- after I explained my issues with "signing" the particular creed the headmaster understood my heart and intentions but I was struck by the requirement. Many of the growing church plants also have such credal statements elders and teachers have to sign up for. I don't like that form of exclusivity in a position which anyone who is honest would have to admit is not plainly and overtly taught as a primary doctrine (whether or not it can be discerned or deduced as a logical conclusion from Scripture). Whatever the Truth is, an honest man must agree that it isn't something that our Lord or His apostles felt needed to be identified as a premise of a saving faith. Lord, yes, worthy of praise, Son of God, absolutely! Beyond that (and that's enough for me) it's more than a little difficult to prove or disprove. I merely cling pretty loosely to Christology beyond that.

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darinhouston
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Re: The Great Debate: Is Jesus God?

Post by darinhouston » Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:37 pm

In that sense, I affirm Jesus is deity in so far as His spirit was that same Holy Spirit in the desert and in the Temple. That spirit is what gives him identify and personality and is in a sense "who" he is. Certainly he is no "mere" human. Whether he had any existence prior to his incarnation (point 1) or prior to Creation (point 2) or some point therebefore towards eternity is debatable, creeds or not.

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darinhouston
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Re: The Great Debate: Is Jesus God?

Post by darinhouston » Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:44 pm

I haven't listened to this yet, but this looks interesting re: John 1:1...

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/videos ... t-john-1-1

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jriccitelli
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Re: The Great Debate: Is Jesus God?

Post by jriccitelli » Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:29 am

This is cool it seems like we are all on the same page, for a moment.
Paidion you said it well when you said "So I think that the New Testament used "God" in two distinct ways". That is the mind frame I use also. There are some times when Jesus (Paul, Peter, and John also) speaks about the God (the Whole One) and of God (a distinct person of, aspect of, or attribute of).
I think Jesus speaks about the One God, of whom Jesus is a part of in John 14, but this is an exception to how Jesus and others generally speak of God, again John 14 is an 'exception' not the normative when Jesus says;
'If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?' (14:7-9) 'for the Father is greater than I' (14:28)

I see Jesus speaking in the verses above (14:7-9, 28) of God as 'the One Unity' comprising 'both' Father and Son, as when they speak collectively. Jesus here refers to both Himself and the Father as One 'in the same'. Understanding that God was known as 'Father' to the Israelites, but not addressed as so, fearing disrespect of the divine.

But immediately before and after Jesus again speaks of Himself and the Father as distinct persons, persons that are One yet also distinct from one another;
'Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.12 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.13 Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. (14:10-13)
Jesus could have simply left it there and said; 'Behold, I am the Father', but Jesus goes back to talking of Himself and the Father as distinct, and scripture continues to do so also.
(I don’t want to argue the Holy Spirit verses here, but it is 'here' that Jesus also separates the Holy Spirit into a distinct person; But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name' 14:16, 17 and 26)

I am one with my wife, but 'only as one as much as created things can be', in the 'image' of Gods oneness. Me and my wife, nor me and the other Church members, do not become 'a Trinity', Jesus asks that we be one 'as' He and the Father are One.
You do agree that Jesus prayed that we all be 'as one', right, what did Jesus mean by that?

I agree with you Darin, that these 'requirements' imposed by groups for acceptance and salvation are wrong and go too far. There are groups that go too far in 'both' directions (i.e. Jesus Only movements). 'My' desire is that we have answers to those who ask, able to teach others, and seek Him that we may know Him 'more'. People do ask; 'How can Jesus be talking (and praying) to God, if Jesus is God? As a father, what answer do I give my son?

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darinhouston
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Re: The Great Debate: Is Jesus God?

Post by darinhouston » Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:34 pm

Man, that's confusing. My problem is I don't hear confusion when I read/hear what the Unitarians say (they seem to call themselves either Classical or Biblical Unitarians). (not to be confused with Unitarian Universalists).

Standing back from the argument, a bit, I get the same impression as I used to as I struggled with the futurist view of eschatology. I tried for years to understand it. As long as I just accepted it "on faith," I was ok, but there was such a dissonance that I finally went looking for alternatives. The amil position I had never heard and it was so clear and understandable once you wiped away the presuppositions that I couldn't hold onto my previous doctrine. I feel I am on that same path. I hope not.

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Perry
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Re: The Great Debate: Is Jesus God?

Post by Perry » Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:16 pm

darinhouston wrote: I hope not.
Why?

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darinhouston
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Re: The Great Debate: Is Jesus God?

Post by darinhouston » Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:12 pm

Perry wrote:
darinhouston wrote: I hope not.
Why?
Because it's so unpopular and considered by most to be heretical.

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Perry
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Re: The Great Debate: Is Jesus God?

Post by Perry » Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:51 pm

darinhouston wrote:Because it's so unpopular and considered by most to be heretical.
But if it's true...

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darinhouston
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Re: The Great Debate: Is Jesus God?

Post by darinhouston » Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:35 am

Perry wrote:
darinhouston wrote:Because it's so unpopular and considered by most to be heretical.
But if it's true...
Exactly! I find Truth to usually be pretty straightforward. Something as significant as whether Jesus the person was the same eternal God that was on the mountain and in the desert and in the Temple seems like a pretty straightforward thing to have been stated plainly even if its acceptance might have offended or otherwise been difficult for the Jews to accept (accepting Him as their prophecied rescuer/deliverer sent from God was hard enough). What a controversial thing this would have been to those first century Jews. Of all the things the epistles had to correct and ensure in those early Christians, I can't imagine there not being a controversy or rebellion against such an idea or folks trying to craft doctrines to avoid such a thing which would have had to be corrected by the Apostles. I just don't see anything to suggest this was in anyone's mind other than some pretty vague and mysterious language by John which could have other explanations and which is very difficult to get consensus in translation.

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