The Great Debate: Is Jesus God?

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jeremiah
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Re: The Great Debate: Is Jesus God?

Post by jeremiah » Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:13 pm

hello jesusrules,
you wrote:...we can best understand this scenerio by the fact that we were created in His image. The human (being) was created in this image with a spirit, soul and body...
of the many explanations of exactly how humanity was created in the image of God, our constitution is, i think, the least supported in the scriptures. would you demonstrate where the scriptures teach what you said?

grace and peace
Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

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darinhouston
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Re: The Great Debate: Is Jesus God?

Post by darinhouston » Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:27 pm

jesusrules777 wrote:"Are you a Modalist, JR?"

No, I'm just a follower of Jesus.

darin,

Simplicity seems to be the best way to understand what is complicated. Jesus used parables so His sheep could understand. Intellect can often get in the way of Truth and revelation. Our brain which is physical and will die with our body, can cloud the ability of our mind (part of our soul which will be with us for eternity) to understand spiritual reality.
Simplistic doesnt equate to simple. If you really think so, though, consider the notion of Divine Simplicity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_simplicity and as for the parables you should consider Jesus' answer in Mat 13:10 when the Disciples asked Him why He taught in parables. It was to obfuscate not to illuminate.

jesusrules777
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Re: The Great Debate: Is Jesus God?

Post by jesusrules777 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:27 pm

darin,

According to Websters Dictionary here is the definition of "simplicity" which is the word I used.
: the state of being simple, uncomplicated, or uncompounded. I'm not sure where you found your definition?

In terms of the parables, you are partially correct as there were multiple reasons for Jesus choosing to use Parables. In Luke, 11, you will see that Jesus also used parables which completely offended the Pharisees as he used illustrations such as "people walking all over hidden graves in a field." His illustrations were extremely clear when describing the Pharisees need to "clean the outside of the cup and ignore the inside." He explained that the way for them to be clean on the inside was to give to the needy from their greed and wickedness.

As I stated in my posting, Jesus also taught in parables so his "sheep" would understand him, not his enemies. Luke 11:53,54 talks about how the Pharisees were so offended by Jesus teachings, they "tried to trap him into saying something they could use against him." Legalistic Christians are still attempting to trap Jesus as He speaks and teaches through humble followers.

jesusrules777
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Re: The Great Debate: Is Jesus God?

Post by jesusrules777 » Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:51 am

jeremiah,

"of the many explanations of exactly how humanity was created in the image of God, our constitution is, i think, the least supported in the scriptures. would you demonstrate where the scriptures teach what you said?"



The book of Genesis discusses our creation and you can also google (made in the image of God).

God Bless!

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Paidion
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Re: The Great Debate: Is Jesus God?

Post by Paidion » Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:04 pm

"Are you a Modalist, JR?"

No, I'm just a follower of Jesus.
Okay. Let me rephrase that question. Do you as just a follower of Jesus, believe that your master, Jesus, is identical to the heavenly Father? — That is, is He the same divine Individual as the heavenly Father?
Paidion

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darinhouston
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Re: The Great Debate: Is Jesus God?

Post by darinhouston » Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:05 am

jesusrules777 wrote:darin,

According to Websters Dictionary here is the definition of "simplicity" which is the word I used.
- the state of being simple, uncomplicated, or uncompounded. I'm not sure where you found your definition?
This doesn't seem to be worth discussion but that's a dependent definition -- you have to go to the definition of "simple" -- it's got a wide semantic range, so you have to look at context. I meant it was "amateurish" or "unsophisticated" but didn't want to be rude.

Definition of SIMPLE

1- free from guile - innocent
2 a - free from vanity - modest b - free from ostentation or display <a simple outfit>
3- of humble origin or modest position <a simple farmer>
4 a - lacking in knowledge or expertise <a simple amateur of the arts> b (1) - stupid (2) - mentally retarded c - not socially or culturally sophisticated - naive; also - credulous
5 a - sheer, unmixed <simple honesty> b - free of secondary complications <a simple vitamin deficiency> c (1) - having only one main clause and no subordinate clauses <a simple sentence> (2) of a subject or predicate - having no modifiers, complements, or objects d - constituting a basic element - fundamental e - not made up of many like units <a simple eye>
6- free from elaboration or figuration <simple harmony>
7 a (1) - not subdivided into branches or leaflets <a simple stem> <a simple leaf> (2) - consisting of a single carpel (3) - developing from a single ovary <a simple fruit> b - controlled by a single gene <simple inherited characters>
8- not limited or restricted - unconditional <a simple obligation>
9- readily understood or performed <simple directions> <the adjustment was simple to make>
10 of a statistical hypothesis - specifying exact values for one or more statistical parameters — compare composite 3
jesusrules777 wrote:In terms of the parables, you are partially correct as there were multiple reasons for Jesus choosing to use Parables. In Luke, 11, you will see that Jesus also used parables which completely offended the Pharisees as he used illustrations such as "people walking all over hidden graves in a field." His illustrations were extremely clear when describing the Pharisees need to "clean the outside of the cup and ignore the inside." He explained that the way for them to be clean on the inside was to give to the needy from their greed and wickedness.

As I stated in my posting, Jesus also taught in parables so his "sheep" would understand him, not his enemies. Luke 11-53,54 talks about how the Pharisees were so offended by Jesus teachings, they "tried to trap him into saying something they could use against him." Legalistic Christians are still attempting to trap Jesus as He speaks and teaches through humble followers.
I don't see how Luke 11 changes this -- Jesus used parables to communicate things in a veiled and obtuse (ahem, parabolic) way so that only those who were spiritual could discern them and that others would miss the point. Even Luke 11 shows how the Pharisees missed the point. More importantly, He was asked why He did it and He told us. That settles it. Jesus did use non-parabolic figurative examples which were quite useful to understanding. That's different from His use of parables.

More important, though -- you didn't tell me what you thought of the doctrine of "Divine Simplicity" in light of your stated preference that simplicity in complex matters is preferred.

jesusrules777
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Re: The Great Debate: Is Jesus God?

Post by jesusrules777 » Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:04 pm

Paidion,

"Okay. Let me rephrase that question. Do you as just a follower of Jesus, believe that your master, Jesus, is identical to the heavenly Father? — That is, is He the same divine Individual as the heavenly Father?"

I believe the Godhead includes God, the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit which is God's Spirit who lives inside of all Believers, guiding, convicting, comforting and living out the fruits of the Spirit.

What do you believe?

God Bless!

jesusrules777
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Re: The Great Debate: Is Jesus God?

Post by jesusrules777 » Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:59 pm

darin,


"This doesn't seem to be worth discussion but that's a dependent definition -- you have to go to the definition of "simple" -- it's got a wide semantic range, so you have to look at context. I meant it was "amateurish" or "unsophisticated" but didn't want to be rude."

If you need to look up the definition of "SIMPLE", that is certainly your choice, however, most people learned the definition of that word as children. I'm not sure why you needed to complicate even the word "SIMPLE" (ironic), but it is certainly clear for people who are thinking with their "mind" which is part of the soul. When a person is thinking with their "intellect" which is fleshly, carnal and will NOT continue into eternity, there is a need to impress the flesh with "sophistication" and "professionally" sounding words. If a person memorizes large words, it doesn't make him intelligent nor does memorizing scripture make him spiritual. When a person communicates from his "brain" and not his "mind", it causes him to become "puffed up" with knowledge as it is coming from the flesh and not the Spirit. We are called to be "transformed by the renewing of our mind, NOT by attempting to sound "sophisticated and professional." This is the opposite of being "transformed" and is instead being "conformed" to the world and it's trappings of intellectual pride. Wisdom comes from God into the soul, NOT the brain, which creates humility rather than pride in the heart. Words from the human brain are dead and have NO life in them. Even "simple" words from the mind of the soul which will live for eternity, bring life and light to those who are blessed enough to receive and discerning enough to understand them.

"I don't see how Luke 11 changes this -- Jesus used parables to communicate things in a veiled and obtuse (ahem, parabolic) way so that only those who were spiritual could discern them and that others would miss the point. Even Luke 11 shows how the Pharisees missed the point. More importantly, He was asked why He did it and He told us. That settles it. Jesus did use non-parabolic figurative examples which were quite useful to understanding. That's different from His use of parables."

I encourage you to read Matthew 21 and 22, you will see that Jesus used parables to communicate to the Pharisees as well. Sometimes Jesus told the Pharisees parables and then explained himself to clarify, just as He did with His sheep. Matt. 21:45 says: Now when the Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He was speaking of them." I'm not sure why you believe that "only those who were spiritual could discern them," as it is extremely clear in this Scripture that Jesus spoke to the Pharisees in parables and they "perceived" what He was saying. Perhaps Jesus words weren't "sophisticated" enough for you to understand them? Or perhaps his speech was too "amateurish" or "simple?"

I can't find anything in Scripture which tells me that spiritual growth will include "being sophisticated and lacking in being amatuer." Are those spiritual words, or intellectual? Isn't the word "amatuer" often used when referring to someone who does something for the "LOVE" of it rather than for "money?" Hmmmmmmm We are called to be wise and gentle, not "sophisticated and professional."

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Paidion
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Re: The Great Debate: Is Jesus God?

Post by Paidion » Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:08 pm

JR777 wrote:I believe the Godhead includes God, the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit which is God's Spirit who lives inside of all Believers, guiding, convicting, comforting and living out the fruits of the Spirit.
Of course you believe that. So does every other Christian. It sure is a struggle to get an answer from you. In any case, I'll ask the question again. Would you please answer either "Yes" or "No"? If you do, then I'll answer your question to me.
Do you as just a follower of Jesus, believe that your master, Jesus, is identical to the heavenly Father? — That is, is He the same divine Individual as the heavenly Father?"
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

jesusrules777
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Re: The Great Debate: Is Jesus God?

Post by jesusrules777 » Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:06 pm

Apparently you're wanting me to say something in particular? I explained to you what I believe in the only words that express those beliefs. I don't believe that the word "individual" can be applied to the Godhead. I believe there are three beings in one Godhead, much like the mind, will and emotions of the soul. I wouldn't describe the mind, will and emotions as individual as the three of them make up the soul. Can the mind think without the will and emotions? Yes, however it is still part of the soul. Can the will act without the mind and emotions, yes, however it is still part of the soul, etc.

Does that answer your question as to my beliefs? The Godhead is one of the main areas of confusion in terms of which words to use in explaining it.

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