The Word as a person of the trinity

[steve7150]

And what an inconceivable cost! Could you conceive and intend the agonizing, most horrible death of one of your children to reconcile with people who hate you? Who in many cases, if not most, will spurn your offering of reconciliation, and with your forknowledge of that fact? What an amazing love!







I don't recall ever meeting anyone who said they hated God. Are you assuming this hatred of God feeling or have many people actually said these words either privately or publically.
I would not define rejecting the message of Jesus as evidence of hating God. I had no understanding of it until it was explained to me 11 years ago but i didn't hate God before that. Many people are indifferent today but again i don't think this rises to the level of hatred, do you?

[Paidion]

Why wouldn't Jesus being begotten simply refer to his birth as the Son of God.

Because it doesn't fit with the rest of scripture. For example how would His birth from Mary make Him the "firstborn of all creation"?

He is...the firstborn of all creation. (Colossians 1:15 ASV, Darby, ESV, RSV, Rotherham, RWebster, WEB, YLT, NASB)

The above translations render the phrase correctly. There is no justification for the rendering "firstborn over all creation" as the EMTV and the NKJV have it. There is no Greek word in any manuscript of the passage for "over". The words for "all" and "creation" are in the genitive case, and thus must be translated as "of all creation." To render the phrase "over all creation" seems a clear example of changing a passage to reflect the translators theological prejudice. And we object to the New World Translation for this very reason!

Phillips has a rather interesting translation: "He was born before creation began." That rendering also indicates a different birth from that of His human birth.

Did you know that the early Catholic church's celebration of Christmas (Christ's mass) held a mass in honour of "the three births of Christ"?
1. His birth before all ages.
2. His human birth from Mary.
3. His birth in the hearts of the faithful. (Galatians 4:19)

[steve7150]

itWhy wouldn't Jesus being begotten simply refer to his birth as the Son of God.


Because it doesn't fit with the rest of scripture. For example how would His birth from Mary make Him the "firstborn of all creation"?

He is...the firstborn of all creation. (Colossians 1:15 ASV, Darby, ESV, RSV, Rotherham, RWebster, WEB, YLT, NASB)




Col 1.15 might have been modified or further clarified by Col 1.17-1.18 "And he is before all things" 1.18 "who is the beginning, the first born from the dead."
In other words Paul may have actually meant "first born from the dead" since it seems to wrap up his stream of thought.

[jeremiah]

hello steve7150,

Col 1.15 might have been modified or further clarified by Col 1.17-1.18 "And he is before all things" 1.18 "who is the beginning, the first born from the dead."
In other words Paul may have actually meant "first born from the dead" since it seems to wrap up his stream of thought.

paul actually meant 'firstborn from the dead' when he said, 'who is the image of God, the firstborn of every creature..' is that what you mean to say?

[jeremiah]

hello darin,

this may come from the out field but...

I don't think so since we are incapable with the taint towards sin which we inherited (and which Jesus didn't since He was begotten in a unique manner without the tendency towards sin)

why would Jesus have any less tendency towards sin (or capacity for sin) than adam before him? would he not need such a capacity to be truly in all points tempted like as we are?

maybe i should have first asked if you're alluding to his virgin birth or that he came from the father with, "in a unique manner.."

[steve7150]

hello steve7150,



steve7150 wrote:Col 1.15 might have been modified or further clarified by Col 1.17-1.18 "And he is before all things" 1.18 "who is the beginning, the first born from the dead."
In other words Paul may have actually meant "first born from the dead" since it seems to wrap up his stream of thought.


paul actually meant 'firstborn from the dead' when he said, 'who is the image of God, the firstborn of every creature..' is that what you mean to say?



Yes that's what i was trying to convey.

[darinhouston]

hello darin,

this may come from the out field but...

I don't think so since we are incapable with the taint towards sin which we inherited (and which Jesus didn't since He was begotten in a unique manner without the tendency towards sin)

why would Jesus have any less tendency towards sin (or capacity for sin) than adam before him? would he not need such a capacity to be truly in all points tempted like as we are?

maybe i should have first asked if you're alluding to his virgin birth or that he came from the father with, "in a unique manner.."

Same as Adam I believe but that's conjecture. At least same enough. If not, His sinless life would lose some effect. I do know he was capable of sin or His temptations would have been a ruse.

[jeremiah]

good morning steve7150,

ok that's what i thought, but i think that would confuse two separate categories or maybe types (not sure what word), of which christ jesus has the preeminence. i agree that paul is wrapping up his thought, but to make "firstborn from the dead" to clarify "firstborn of every creature", i believe is to mistake his point. that jesus has the preeminence over the original creation (regardless of what form that nature takes, which is the question this thread is asking). and also in this new creation that God is starting with the church, he has the preeminence, being the firstborn from the dead. jesus is the only man to have thus far overcome death by his resurrection.

so i think what paul instead means to lay out with "firstborn from the dead", is to demonstrate the multiple ways that christ truly in all things has the preeminence by showing parallels between two major works of God.

if this is true, i wonder if clearer light might be shed by it on the nature of the word before becoming flesh. in the context of this passage, it seems unarguably clear that paul is using 'head' as 'source' or beginning from which all things come forth.

grace and peace to you.

[jeremiah]

hello darin,

i guess my comment might have been a knee jerk reaction. but were you alluding to something like "original sin"?

[darinhouston]

hello darin,

i guess my comment might have been a knee jerk reaction. but were you alluding to something like "original sin"?

Please elaborate.