Love and the Trinity

[jeremiah]

Hello Matt,

I'm not really in agreement with you on this, but I don't want to be prematurely critical about what you've written here. Is there somewhere on Theos where I can find more about what you're presenting?

I believe that the doctrine of the Trinity is essential (in the sense that it is most consistent with) a theology of love. The Bible says that God is love. I am of the school of thought that LOVE is God's core characteristic. Indeed, all other 'attributes' of God are simply His love playing out in context.

I was hoping you can elaborate on the first and last two sentences of the above quote. They aren't obvious to my mind. That is, why can't God's other "attributes", including his lovingkindness, simply be his holiness playing out in context?

Grace and peace to you.

[mattrose]

Hello Matt,

I'm not really in agreement with you on this, but I don't want to be prematurely critical about what you've written here. Is there somewhere on Theos where I can find more about what you're presenting?

I believe that the doctrine of the Trinity is essential (in the sense that it is most consistent with) a theology of love. The Bible says that God is love. I am of the school of thought that LOVE is God's core characteristic. Indeed, all other 'attributes' of God are simply His love playing out in context.

I was hoping you can elaborate on the first and last two sentences of the above quote. They aren't obvious to my mind. That is, why can't God's other "attributes", including his lovingkindness, simply be his holiness playing out in context?

Grace and peace to you.

I don't know that I've posted too much about this before. If there is a 'source' that was most influential in this regard it may have been Clark Pinnock's 'Flame of Love' (His theology of the Holy Spirit). But it seems a lot of my favorite authors think along these lines (it is by no means an original thought of mine).

To say it another way. I believe that the doctrine of the Trinity is true. I believe that this belief makes the most sense of a theology that has love as its core characteristic of God. I do not claim that one MUST have love as the center of one's theology. Nor do I claim that the doctrine of the trinity is the ONLY POSSIBLE way to have love at the core of one's theology. But since I do place love at the core of my theology AND since I do consider trinitarian thinking the best starting point for that theology, I am a bolder trinitarian today than I ever have been.

One could, of course, make holiness the center of their theology (or a combination of holiness and love). That's just not the school of thought I find myself learning and growing in these days. Placing love at the center, rooted in trinitarian belief, makes the most sense to me... is the most beautiful... and seems to be bearing fruit in my life.

[Paidion]

So you are saying God existed before time began, or no?

The question is meangless since there was no "before". I know it is difficult or impossible for us as human beings to conceive of an actual beginning to time. We just naturally feel that for any event, there had to be a "before". If there were a "before" the begetting of the Son, then that event was NOT the first event, and time DIDN'T begin with that event. Our innate sense is that of an infinite regression of time into the past. But I could never get my mind around this thought. What was God doing for that infinite period of time prior to the begetting of the Son and creation? I think all of us have assimilated the idea of an infinite regression of time into the past from our education (though perhaps not overtly). I know that is what I presumed throughout my youth. Then the time came when I began to see that there was a real beginning to time, probably shortly before "the beginning of creation" mentioned in Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1.

As for the modern concept of some act taking place or something existing "outside of time", this makes no sense at all to me.

[steve7150]

I believe that this belief makes the most sense of a theology that has love as its core characteristic of God. I do not claim that one MUST have love as the center of one's theology. Nor do I claim that the doctrine of the trinity is the ONLY POSSIBLE way to have love at the core of one's theology. But since I do place love at the core of my theology AND since I do consider trinitarian thinking the best starting point for that theology, I am a bolder trinitarian today than I ever have been.








Speaking for just myself i can't fathom how three divine beings always existing can be defined as anything other then three gods hence Polytheism. I would submit that since the Father always existed and since the Father "is love" that by default love always existed. Out of this love by extension is the desire to share love with others and at some moment in the distant past before the universe was created, came the Spirit of God and the Word of God out of the Father himself.
Anyway this is just my opinion to try to make everything make sense to myself.

[steve7150]

Then the time came when I began to see "In the beginning" (Gen.1:1, John 1:1) as a reference to the Beginning of Time.










Paidion,
I'm sure you answered this before but i must have not paid attention, so how do you know John 1.1 does not refer to the beginning of the creation of the universe? I think since the subject matter is the creation of the universe it was my first reaction.

[darinhouston]

Mightn't they be the same ? (Time beginning when the universe was created)


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[Paidion]

I'm sure you answered this before but i must have not paid attention, so how do you know John 1.1 does not refer to the beginning of the creation of the universe?

I was wrong in my previous statement. Indeed, I think "the beginning" as expressed in John 1:1 does refer to the beginning of creation.

Thus we could say, "At the time of the beginning of creation WAS the Logos." As John 1:2 affirms:

He was in the beginning with God.

So the Logos was WITH God prior to creation. For God created the universe THROUGH the Logos.

All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made.(John 1:3 )

I think the begetting of the Son marked the beginning of time. But in my opinion, the creation of the universe soon followed—maybe even a split second later. So sometimes I confuse "the beginning of time" with "the beginning of creation." I have now corrected my previous post. Thanks, Steve, for pointing this out.

[mattrose]

Speaking for just myself i can't fathom how three divine beings always existing can be defined as anything other then three gods hence Polytheism. I would submit that since the Father always existed and since the Father "is love" that by default love always existed. Out of this love by extension is the desire to share love with others and at some moment in the distant past before the universe was created, came the Spirit of God and the Word of God out of the Father himself.
Anyway this is just my opinion to try to make everything make sense to myself.

Just as you can't see how 3 divine beings always existing is inseparable from polytheism... I have a hard time seeing how one being existing without relationship can have love as a core characteristic.

[steve7150]

I think the begetting of the Son marked the beginning of time. But in my opinion, the creation of the universe soon followed—maybe even a split second later. So sometimes I confuse "the beginning of time" with "the beginning of creation." I have now corrected my previous post. Thanks, Steve, for pointing this out.






Paidion,
You may be right but why do you think the begetting of the Son marked the beginning of time? Also why do you think the universe was created immediately afterwards? How do you know God didn't create other universes or other things before this one?
Scientists think this universe is expanding at the speed of light and the bible may affirm this therefore that would mean there is empty space outside this universe. Empty space does not sound like much, but it is something that can hold an increasingly growing universe which may mean God created something material in addition to this universe.

[steve7150]

Just as you can't see how 3 divine beings always existing is inseparable from polytheism... I have a hard time seeing how one being existing without relationship can have love as a core characteristic.







OK fair enough.