Jesus' God was not the Trinity, why is yours?

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21centpilgrim
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Jesus' God was not the Trinity, why is yours?

Post by 21centpilgrim » Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:28 am

"...go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"- Jesus

yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. -1 Cor. 8:6

that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. - Rom. 15:6

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, - 2 Cor. 1:5

The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, he who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying. - 2Cor. 11:31

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, - Eph. 1:3

that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him,- Eph. 1:17

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,- 1 Pet. 1:3

This is not just 2 or 3 verses but a normal way of speaking of Jesus, post-resurrection and ascension, by both Paul and Peter and Jesus himself.
Should this clear, reoccurring example at least cause us to pause or perhaps even challenge the assumption of the Trinity?

I pray so.
'Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God.'
Then those who feared the LORD spoke with each other, and the LORD listened to what they said. In his presence, a scroll of remembrance was written to record the names of those who feared him and loved to think about him.

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Homer
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Re: Jesus' God was not the Trinity, why is yours?

Post by Homer » Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:27 pm

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 - And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 10:30 - I and [my] Father are one.

Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

John 8:58 - Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

If Jesus is not God, how is it acceptable to pray to Him?

21. Acts 7:59-60 And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

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21centpilgrim
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Re: Jesus' God was not the Trinity, why is yours?

Post by 21centpilgrim » Sun Mar 08, 2020 1:23 pm

Homer, i would have responded like that when I was a Trinitarian.
Have you ever paused and given consideration to the possibility that the case for the Trinity is much weaker than generally assumed?

John 10:30 for instance.
24The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”
25Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me,
26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.
27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.
30I and the Father are one.”
31Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him,
32but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
33“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
34Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods” ’?
35If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside—
36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

The Pharisees thought Jesus was claiming to be God in 33, Jesus clarifies that what he was saying was not that he was God but that he is God's son, that he is the Messiah.
So using verse 30 as a proof text is to align yourself with the same kind of misunderstanding the Pharisees had, except that we now can read the whole passage and even later on in John and understand that the 'one'ness is meaning about the same business on the same mission and in agreement- just like in chapter 17 when Jesus prays that his disciples would be on just as Jesus and the Father are one- unified in mission.

thanks
Then those who feared the LORD spoke with each other, and the LORD listened to what they said. In his presence, a scroll of remembrance was written to record the names of those who feared him and loved to think about him.

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Homer
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Re: Jesus' God was not the Trinity, why is yours?

Post by Homer » Sun Mar 08, 2020 4:00 pm

But Jesus' words while here on earth reflect his status at that point in time when he had "emptied Himself". How do you exegete Isaiah 9:6 where we see "everlasting Father" as a descriptor of the child who was born to us?

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus' God was not the Trinity, why is yours?

Post by darinhouston » Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:21 pm

Homer wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 4:00 pm
But Jesus' words while here on earth reflect his status at that point in time when he had "emptied Himself". How do you exegete Isaiah 9:6 where we see "everlasting Father" as a descriptor of the child who was born to us?
I would exegete it in the same way the Jews would. I'm not aware of any scholars who believe the OT Jewish readers would have Yahweh in view in this passage, and I'm unaware of any Apostolic writing recasting this passage with any prophetic authority. There are any number of natural Jewish ways to take this passage. Just as Abraham is considered Father of many nations, and many other examples (even we talk today of someone being the father of innovation or that sort of thing). Likewise, they were looking for someone that would be the "never-ending" father or "everlasting" father or "father of the ages" etc. of God's people.

So......I guess I would ask how you exegete it since it seems to be a proof-text for you -- can a Trinitarian conflate Jesus with the Father?. According to a Trinitarian proof-text reading of this passage, that would suggest ontological identity between Jesus and the Father Himself. That would deny the separate personality of the Father and the Son.

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Paidion
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Re: Jesus' God was not the Trinity, why is yours?

Post by Paidion » Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:30 pm

Thanks 21¢ for those clear verses that distinguish Jesus from God and do not support the concept of a supposed Trinity.

For me, the most powerful words to that effect are the words of Jesus Himself who addressed His Father as "the only true God."

And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. (John 17:3 ESV)

By adding the words "and Jesus Christ whom you have sent," He distinguished Himself as Someone other than "the only true God."

Some of you might want to ask me why I capitalize words that refer to Jesus if I don't regard Him either as God the Father Himself or as part of a supposed Trinity. That answer is that He qualifies as being divine in virtue of the fact that (as the early Christians affirmed), He was begotten by the Father before all ages as the Father's first act.

When we beget a child, that child is human like ourselves. When God begets a Son, that Son is divine like Himself.
Paidion

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Homer
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Re: Jesus' God was not the Trinity, why is yours?

Post by Homer » Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:50 pm

Paidion,

What is the difference in your mind between being divine and being a god?

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Paidion
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Re: Jesus' God was not the Trinity, why is yours?

Post by Paidion » Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:46 pm

The question that should be asked is, "What's the difference in being divine and being THE God"?

There is only one true God, and Jesus called His Father "the only true God."

Jesus is divine in virtue of being the ONLY begotten Son of God.

Fortunately, two manuscripts were copied prior to 300 A.D. that contain John 1:18.

Papyrus 66, dated about the middle of the second century (around 150 A.D.) has “μονογενης θεος” ("only begotten God" rather than "only begotten Son.") Papyrus 75, dated in the late second century (perhaps around 180 A.D.) has “ὁ μονογενης θεος”. Thus this manuscript clearly has “the only begotten God”. The Father was not begotten. The Son was. He is therefore divine and be called "God" in that sense, but not "THE God." Just as you are human and can be called "man." But not "THE Man." In one sense, only Jesus can be called "The Man."
Paidion

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Homer
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Re: Jesus' God was not the Trinity, why is yours?

Post by Homer » Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:54 am

Hi Paidion,

You wrote:
Papyrus 66, dated about the middle of the second century (around 150 A.D.) has “μονογενης θεος” ("only begotten God" rather than "only begotten Son.") Papyrus 75, dated in the late second century (perhaps around 180 A.D.) has “ὁ μονογενης θεος”. Thus this manuscript clearly has “the only begotten God”. The Father was not begotten. The Son was. He is therefore divine and be called "God" in that sense, but not "THE God." Just as you are human and can be called "man." But not "THE Man." In one sense, only Jesus can be called "The Man."
Unless I misunderstand you, you are clearly saying there are two Gods, the difference being in the "office" they hold.

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Paidion
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Re: Jesus' God was not the Trinity, why is yours?

Post by Paidion » Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:04 pm

I suppose in a sense one could say that there are "two Gods" (only one of which is THE God, and only one of which is TRUE God).
For Jesus addressed His Father as "the ONLY true God," Jesus Himself being "the only begotten God."
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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