Reconciled to God , not Jesus

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21centpilgrim
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Reconciled to God , not Jesus

Post by 21centpilgrim » Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:02 pm

We are reconciled to God, we are not reconciled to Jesus.
1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
2 Cor. 5
18All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19that is, God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

The center of the whole story is man being alienated from God. This is man's problem and dilemma yet it was God who came up with and planed the solution, not man's contriving. Jesus is the means of reconciliation, not object to whom reconciliation is vital.
Jesus mediated and made reconciliation to God (not to himself) possible. And he is still praying to God for his brethren now!

This is a huge biblical fact that undercuts Trinitarianism imo. Jesus is not God. We do not, or did not, need to be reconciled to the son but to the Father alone, because the Father alone is the only true God.

Thoughts?
Thanks
Then those who feared the LORD spoke with each other, and the LORD listened to what they said. In his presence, a scroll of remembrance was written to record the names of those who feared him and loved to think about him.

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Homer
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Re: Reconciled to God , not Jesus

Post by Homer » Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:42 pm

If the Trinity or at least Binity is not true we have many problems such as polytheism, or Jesus is not divine, or not actually God's Son, or was a mere man, etc., etc.

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21centpilgrim
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Re: Reconciled to God , not Jesus

Post by 21centpilgrim » Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:29 am

Not as problematic as assumed, but definitely challenges years of thinking engraved in my head. It does not challenge Jesus as actually God's Son. That is clear straightforward repeated NT teaching.
'Mere man', Christology is an early pejorative given to those who didn't subscribe to Trinity theology or pre-Trinity logos Christology.

Being the only unique beloved Son of God, being the Messiah ect. is a really big deal. Being The Son of Man from Daniel 7 is a really big deal, being the fulfillment of all of those OT prophecies starting with the seed of Eve in Gen. 3 and Abrahams's seed, Prophet like Moses, David promised Shepherd/King, suffering servant, ect. ect. ect. is awesome to behold. Being the highly exalted one, being given all authority, being given a name above every name, being able to forgive sins..... I think you see where I am going. So not affirming the Trinity or the deity of Christ (as understood by Trinitarians) does not mean thinking Jesus is a 'mere man'.
grace and peace
Then those who feared the LORD spoke with each other, and the LORD listened to what they said. In his presence, a scroll of remembrance was written to record the names of those who feared him and loved to think about him.

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Paidion
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Re: Reconciled to God , not Jesus

Post by Paidion » Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:57 pm

I essentially agree 21¢. Jesus Himself addressed the Father as "the only true God."

I have pointed out many times that the Greek word for "God" in the NT well over 90% of the cases refers to the Father alone, and sometimes refers to the Son of God. However,when prefixed by the article with no other modifiers, it always refers to the Father. The word for "God" NEVER refers to a Trinity.

Yet, in virtue of being the only-begotten Son of God, Jesus is fully divine—just as divine as the Father. That is the reason He is called "God" but never "the God."

John 1:1 literally reads, "In the beginning was the Expression and the Expression was with the God and the Expression was God."
It doesn't say that the Expression was THE GOD, but that he was with THE GOD. Calling Jesus "God" is another way of saying that He was divine (and is divine). He is the only Divine Individual other that THE GOD, that is, the Father. That is why John calls Him "The Expression". He is the Expression of God the Father. And in that sense He is God, but not THE GOD.

The oldest Greek manuscripts of John 1:18 reads in translation, "the only begotten God," for the Father is unbegotten. The NAS and the NAS95 so render it.

No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. (John 1:18 NAS98)


Jesus is the only begotten God. The Father is unbegotten.
Paidion

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steve7150
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Re: Reconciled to God , not Jesus

Post by steve7150 » Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:05 pm

This is a huge biblical fact that undercuts Trinitarianism imo. Jesus is not God. We do not, or did not, need to be reconciled to the son but to the Father alone, because the Father alone is the only true God.




I'm not sure it undercuts all Trinitarianism, maybe a certain kind. I think of Jesus as "the Word" or a part of God that emerged at some point in the distant past and Jesus is divine , but that divinity is from Father God. So as "the Word" I think he is a connection or a pathway or a mediator to Father God yet also in some way Jesus is also an aspect of God.

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darinhouston
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Re: Reconciled to God , not Jesus

Post by darinhouston » Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:17 pm

steve7150 wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:05 pm
I'm not sure it undercuts all Trinitarianism, maybe a certain kind. I think of Jesus as "the Word" or a part of God that emerged at some point in the distant past and Jesus is divine , but that divinity is from Father God. So as "the Word" I think he is a connection or a pathway or a mediator to Father God yet also in some way Jesus is also an aspect of God.
No offense, and I don't mean to criticize your view at all, but from my understanding that's not really any kind of Trinitarian view. That's very close to Arius' own view (and that of many of the early pre-Nicene "church fathers").

steve7150
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Re: Reconciled to God , not Jesus

Post by steve7150 » Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:47 pm

No offense, and I don't mean to criticize your view at all, but from my understanding that's not really any kind of Trinitarian view. That's very close to Arius' own view (and that of many of the early pre-Nicene "church fathers").






I think in Arius's view Jesus is a separate creation whereas in my view he emerged from Father God so Jesus actually has God material and so he really is divine. Same for the Holy Spirit as he the Spirit of God emerged from God at some point in time.
The traditional Trinity I believe claims all three are eternal & divine but in my simple mind, this adds up to three God's.

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darinhouston
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Re: Reconciled to God , not Jesus

Post by darinhouston » Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:01 pm

Emerging from the Father God? I'm familiar with threads like this, but can you elaborate from your perspective? Was there a time when Jesus was not? Was there a time when there was just the Father? Did the Father lose something when Jesus emerged from Him?

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Paidion
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Re: Reconciled to God , not Jesus

Post by Paidion » Wed Apr 01, 2020 4:16 pm

darinhouston wrote:Was there a time when Jesus was not? Was there a time when there was just the Father? Did the Father lose something when Jesus emerged from Him?
Steve is well able to answer for himself. Nevertheless, I would like to express my thinking on your questions.

No there was not a time when Jesus was not. However, there is NOT an infinite regression of time extending into the past. Otherwise, there would be an infinite time in which the Father did nothing—only existed.

The begetting of the Son (when the Son emerged from the Father) was the first of the Father's acts. This marked the beginning of time.
And no, the Father didn't lose something or become less when the Father begat Him. When a human father begets a son, he as a person doesn't lose something or become less, does he?
Paidion

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Homer
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Re: Reconciled to God , not Jesus

Post by Homer » Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:54 pm

Paidion wrote:
The begetting of the Son (when the Son emerged from the Father) was the first of the Father's acts. This marked the beginning of time.
And no, the Father didn't lose something or become less when the Father begat Him. When a human father begets a son, he as a person doesn't lose something or become less, does he?
Seems to me the analogy falls apart. When a human father begets a son then we have two humans (three, actually, counting the mother). So how is it we do not have two Gods unless "God" designates position rather than being?

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