Reconciled to God , not Jesus

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darinhouston
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Re: Reconciled to God , not Jesus

Post by darinhouston » Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:46 pm

We’ve been down the temporal road before. But I’m not sure that’s where Steve would go. And he didn’t say begets. He said he emerged from the same “material”? “Essence”? “Stuff”?


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Paidion
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Re: Reconciled to God , not Jesus

Post by Paidion » Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:43 pm

Homer wrote:When a human father begets a son then we have two humans (three, actually, counting the mother). So how is it we do not have two Gods unless "God" designates position rather than being?
Greenflies, stick insects, aphids, water fleas, scorpions, termites and honey bees are all capable of producing offspring without males.
So if each of these creatures can alone produce offspring, surely God can do so.

However, there is a sense in which Jesus is God. He is not the God. But He is God in the sense of being divine, in virtue of the fact that the God begat Him. However, He Himself addressed His Father as the only true God.
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Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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steve7150
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Re: Reconciled to God , not Jesus

Post by steve7150 » Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:35 pm

Emerging from the Father God? I'm familiar with threads like this, but can you elaborate from your perspective? Was there a time when Jesus was not? Was there a time when there was just the Father? Did the Father lose something when Jesus emerged from Him?





Well obviously there is a lot of speculation in all this but in John it says 6 different times that Jesus "came forth from God" & I think in the KJV "came out of God" in John 16 , so I think as "the Word of God" at some point morphed from his original sanctuary (Father God) & became a separate entity. He is divine but he was given this divinity by Father God. Same thing with the Spirit of God.
So God did not lose anything , if anything perhaps He added something. As far as whether there was a time the "Word" didn't exist , I think he always existed but in a different way, same as the Holy Spirit.
I don't see this as three Gods since Jesus & the HS depend on the Father as the source for their divinity. As Paidion mentioned Jesus called the Father "the one true God" which doesn't fit with the traditional Trinity view. As for the word "beget" , I think it's a good description, perhaps not precise but close.

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Homer
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Re: Reconciled to God , not Jesus

Post by Homer » Sun Apr 05, 2020 9:54 pm

Consider this:

Philippians 2:6-7 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
6. who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7. but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.


IMO The Word became the Son when conceived by the Holy Spirit in the virgin Mary and now is forever the Son. The Word must have been personal in some sense; the Greek verb "emptied" is aorist indicative active which informs us the action was completed by the subject. The Word emptied Himself.

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darinhouston
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Re: Reconciled to God , not Jesus

Post by darinhouston » Sun Apr 05, 2020 9:59 pm

Homer wrote:Consider this:

Philippians 2:6-7 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
6. who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7. but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.


IMO The Word became the Son when conceived by the Holy Spirit in the virgin Mary and now is forever the Son. The Word must have been personal in some sense; the Greek verb "emptied" is aorist indicative active which informs us the action was completed by the subject. The Word emptied Himself.
It doesn’t say the Word emptied himself. It says Christ Jesus emptied himself. Unlike the first Adam, he didn’t seek to take charge of his life but made himself of no reputation and emptied himself as we are called to empty ourselves. He was the perfect model of what we are to do in contrast to the first Adam. That doesn’t necessarily imply some pre-incarnate existence as God, the Godness of which He emptied himself. Besides, how could he still be fully God if he emptied himself of that Godness?


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steve7150
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Re: Reconciled to God , not Jesus

Post by steve7150 » Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:55 am

[color=#BF0000]Besides, how could he still be fully God if he emptied himself of that Godness?

[/color]





I think some translations say "set aside." We don't know much about how a divine Spirit may physically do things like set aside or empty or come forth from because it's unclear from scripture and we have no experience with this.

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21centpilgrim
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Re: Reconciled to God , not Jesus

Post by 21centpilgrim » Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:52 am

'he emptied himself'
'he made himself nothing'
'he made himself of no reputation'

before we take 'emptied' and actually think he poured out part of his deity, we have to make sure we are not saying more than the words say just to fit a latter theory.
Whatever he did, he did it by taking on the form of a servant. A good picture of this is when Jesus washed his disciple's feet he discarded his outer robe/cloak and was in the simple garb and position of a household servant.

Also whatever Christ did, was something Paul was encouraging us to follow in the example of and be able to relate to.
I find it highly unlikely that Paul is meaning for us to relate to the principle of setting aside part of our divine being and to take on a form of a human. Obviously the example includes being obedient no matter what the cost, just saying that some interpretations seem to read a later theory back onto the text.
Then those who feared the LORD spoke with each other, and the LORD listened to what they said. In his presence, a scroll of remembrance was written to record the names of those who feared him and loved to think about him.

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darinhouston
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Re: Reconciled to God , not Jesus

Post by darinhouston » Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:54 am

21centpilgrim wrote:'he emptied himself'
'he made himself nothing'
'he made himself of no reputation'

before we take 'emptied' and actually think he poured out part of his deity, we have to make sure we are not saying more than the words say just to fit a latter theory.
Whatever he did, he did it by taking on the form of a servant. A good picture of this is when Jesus washed his disciple's feet he discarded his outer robe/cloak and was in the simple garb and position of a household servant.

Also whatever Christ did, was something Paul was encouraging us to follow in the example of and be able to relate to.
I find it highly unlikely that Paul is meaning for us to relate to the principle of setting aside part of our divine being and to take on a form of a human. Obviously the example includes being obedient no matter what the cost, just saying that some interpretations seem to read a later theory back onto the text.
That’s sort of what I was trying to say. But you did it much better.


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steve7150
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Re: Reconciled to God , not Jesus

Post by steve7150 » Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:44 pm

That doesn’t necessarily imply some pre-incarnate existence as God, the Godness of which He emptied himself. Besides, how could he still be fully God if he emptied himself of that Godness?







Paul did say "He existed in the form of God" before getting to the section about emptying himself and this sounds like a pre-incarnate existence to me, not to mention John 1.
Once he emptied himself he was not fully God , he was the man Jesus , fully human & filled with the HS.

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21centpilgrim
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Re: Reconciled to God , not Jesus

Post by 21centpilgrim » Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:41 am

Are there any other possible meanings besides 'pre-existence' to reconcile the passage?
It does not say He existed as God but in the form of God.

Could this refer to Jesus in the garden before his betrayal?

Could this refer to Jesus being tempted in the wilderness?

Both are instances where Jesus could have exercised his high status but took the lowly road.

Just wondering if other possibilities can fit the scenario we have before us

Thanks
Then those who feared the LORD spoke with each other, and the LORD listened to what they said. In his presence, a scroll of remembrance was written to record the names of those who feared him and loved to think about him.

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