"Being in the form (morphe) of God" Philippians 2:6

steve7150
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Re: "Being in the form (morphe) of God" Philippians 2:6

Post by steve7150 » Sat Apr 11, 2020 6:17 pm

The word seems to refer to the outward appearance.







What would it mean to be in the outward appearance of God since God is Spirit? Paul also said Christ was the exact image of God, what do you think he meant in this case?

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Homer
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Re: "Being in the form (morphe) of God" Philippians 2:6

Post by Homer » Sat Apr 11, 2020 7:56 pm

Darin,

I noticed this in the lengthy post from the biblicalunitarian. It seemed to me to be not a powerful argument but a very weak one:
2. After saying that Christ was in the form of God, Philippians 2:6 goes on to say that Christ “did not consider equality with God something to be grasped” (NIV). This phrase is a powerful argument against the Trinity. If Jesus were God, then it would make no sense at all to say that he did not “grasp” at equality with God because no one grasps at equality with himself. It only makes sense to compliment someone for not seeking equality when he is not equal. Some Trinitarians say, “Well, he was not grasping for equality with the Father.” That is not what the verse says. It says Christ did not grasp at equality with God, which makes the verse nonsense if he were God.
From the Trinitarian view, since they see three persons who are one God, his (Buzzard?) argument carries little weight. What would be the point if Jesus never gave up something He had?

I'm wondering how he would explain this:

John 10:29-30 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
29. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30. I and the Father are one.”


Not only does Jesus say He and the Father are one, but verse 29 would not seem to make sense otherwise. God gave them to Jesus', they are His possession. How does Jesus possess them yet they are in the Father's hand? In some sense He and the Father are one.

I do not see how it is possible to deny Jesus' preexistence:

John 17:5 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
5. Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.


Especially given the repeated assertions by Apostles regarding His role in creation:

John 1:1-3 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2. He was in the beginning with God. 3. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Romans 11:36 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
36.For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen

1. Corinthians 8:6 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
6. yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him

Colossians 1:16 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
16. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

Hebrews 1:2 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
2. in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

I can see how an argument might be formed against the apparent meaning of any one of them, but taken collectively I do not see how Jesus' role in creation can be disputed without appearing desperate to defend a position.

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Re: "Being in the form (morphe) of God" Philippians 2:6

Post by backwoodsman » Sat Apr 11, 2020 7:56 pm

Paidion wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 5:14 pm
The word seems to refer to the outward appearance.
Robertson says it "means the essential attributes as shown in the form."

Abbott-Smith says it can mean 'character'.

Mounce says it can mean 'nature'.

So it seems it can (and does, in this case) mean a lot more than just outward appearance.

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Paidion
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Re: "Being in the form (morphe) of God" Philippians 2:6

Post by Paidion » Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:01 pm

backwoodsman wrote:Robertson says it "means the essential attributes as shown in the form.

Abbott-Smith says it can mean 'character'.

Mounce says it can mean 'nature'.

So it seems it can (and does, in this case) mean a lot more than just outward appearance.
According to the Online Bible Program's Greek lexicon, the Greek word μορφη (usually translated as "form") refers to:

1) the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision
2) external appearance
Paidion

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steve7150
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Re: "Being in the form (morphe) of God" Philippians 2:6

Post by steve7150 » Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:17 pm

According to the Online Bible Program's Greek lexicon, the Greek word μορφη (usually translated as "form") refers to:

1) the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision
2) external appearance








I think it's clear it could be about "the outer" or "the inner" so then this is about context and my question was since God is Spirit what does it mean for Jesus to take on the outer appearance of God and also when Paul said Christ was the exact image of God, what do you think he was referring to?

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Homer
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Re: "Being in the form (morphe) of God" Philippians 2:6

Post by Homer » Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:09 pm

steve7150,

Another good post :!:

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21centpilgrim
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Re: "Being in the form (morphe) of God" Philippians 2:6

Post by 21centpilgrim » Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:51 pm

When Jesus said "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.”

That is talking about ‘form' imo.
Then those who feared the LORD spoke with each other, and the LORD listened to what they said. In his presence, a scroll of remembrance was written to record the names of those who feared him and loved to think about him.

steve7150
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Re: "Being in the form (morphe) of God" Philippians 2:6

Post by steve7150 » Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:18 am

When Jesus said "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.”

That is talking about ‘form' imo.




To me it sounds like "the essence" of God , since God is Spirit & Jesus was a man I don't connect how it refers to outward appearance.

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Re: "Being in the form (morphe) of God" Philippians 2:6

Post by backwoodsman » Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:59 am

Paidion wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:01 pm
According to the Online Bible Program's Greek lexicon, the Greek word μορφη (usually translated as "form") refers to:

1) the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision
2) external appearance
That's Thayer's definition. He's generally good, but in this case clearly incomplete.
steve7150 wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:17 pm
I think it's clear it could be about "the outer" or "the inner" so then this is about context and my question was since God is Spirit what does it mean for Jesus to take on the outer appearance of God and also when Paul said Christ was the exact image of God, what do you think he was referring to?
Since God has no physical appearance, it seems clear it can't be referring to "the outer", but must be referring to Jesus' character or nature, to use the other lexicons' words.

Regarding the word translated 'grasped' or 'seized' (or even worse, 'robbery', as KJV): All those words conjure, to my mind at least, the idea of Jesus not being God, but having considered grasping at being God. But several Greek references indicate it carries a connotation of holding onto something that's already in hand. So it's saying (v7) He emptied Himself of his God-ness to become a man. To me, that looks like a far bigger sacrifice than we can fully understand, and also like irrefutable proof of His preexistence as God in every sense.

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21centpilgrim
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Re: "Being in the form (morphe) of God" Philippians 2:6

Post by 21centpilgrim » Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:31 pm

"To me it sounds like "the essence" of God , since God is Spirit & Jesus was a man I don't connect how it refers to outward appearance."

The actions and teachings of Jesus reflected and imaged the Father. Jesus exegetes the Father through his own life that was seen and observed. That was what I think Jesus'was meaning by seeing the Fsther by seeing Jesus.

What do you think Jesus meant when he said that and how do you see my definition incompatible with 'form'?
Thanks
Then those who feared the LORD spoke with each other, and the LORD listened to what they said. In his presence, a scroll of remembrance was written to record the names of those who feared him and loved to think about him.

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