The Trinity from Communications Science

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Paidion
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Re: The Trinity from Communications Science

Post by Paidion » Thu Feb 18, 2021 5:25 pm

I have never suggested that the Son of God was created. Rather I have affirmed the early Christian position that He was begotten before all ages.
The early Christians stated over and over: "Begotten not created."
Even we poor human beings do not create our children; we beget them.
You wrote:By the way, your statement "the first act of God" makes no sense. If God is eternal, and He is, there cannot be a "first act" of His. If you say, His first act was such and such - that can't be possible, since He did something before that.
How do you know that He did anything before that. Indeed, how do you know that there WAS a "before that"?

The framers of the Nicene Creed seemed to think the begetting of the Son before all ages made sense (though they seemed to use "begotten" and "born" interchangebly. The creed began as follows:

I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.

(bolding mine for emphasis)
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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dwight92070
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Re: The Trinity from Communications Science

Post by dwight92070 » Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:49 pm

Paidion wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 5:25 pm
I have never suggested that the Son of God was created. Rather I have affirmed the early Christian position that He was begotten before all ages.
The early Christians stated over and over: "Begotten not created."

Dwight: Okay so you said "begotten as the first act of God". What scripture says that this was the first act of God?
You wrote:By the way, your statement "the first act of God" makes no sense. If God is eternal, and He is, there cannot be a "first act" of His. If you say, His first act was such and such - that can't be possible, since He did something before that.
How do you know that He did anything before that. Indeed, how do you know that there WAS a "before that"?

Dwight: I go by the evidence of scripture. Jesus said, "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working." John 5:17 At that point, the Father had been working (at least) over 4000 years, so I think it's safe to assume that He stays busy. Not only that, but Jesus was always working and if we look at Him, we see the Father. What evidence do you have that He was doing nothing?

Dwight: How do I know that there was a "before that"? Again, the Bible is my evidence. 1 Timothy 1:17 "Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen." God is eternal - therefore there has always been a "before that". What evidence do you have that there was not a "before that"?

Dwight: Did you happen to notice in that last verse, even more evidence that Jesus is God? We know that Jesus is the King of Kings and the verse says that the King is eternal - that is, Jesus always existed. Also, King Jesus is the "only God", according to the verse. You have quoted verses that say that the Father is the only God. Well, Jesus is also the only God. The Holy Spirit is also called God.

God bless you,

Dwight

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Re: The Trinity from Communications Science

Post by dwight92070 » Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:39 am

Paidion wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 5:25 pm

How do you know that He did anything before that. Indeed, how do you know that there WAS a "before that"?

Dwight: I think you're just blowing out smokescreens now, since you can't really give any scriptural evidence for saying that God's first act was to beget Jesus. These 2 questions could be answered by most Christians who have a handle on what the Bible says and yet you act as though we don't know the answers to them. We know God is eternal and we know, by looking at Jesus and listening to His teaching, that God is not lazy.

So instead of avoiding the question of giving evidence that God's first act was to beget Jesus, why not just put your cards on the table?



Dwight

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Paidion
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Re: The Trinity from Communications Science

Post by Paidion » Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:19 am

The Begetting (or Generation) of the Son of God Before All Ages

During my youth, I thought Jesus being the “only-begotten Son of God” referred to his having been begotten in the womb of Mary. But when I began reading second-century Christian writers in my early twenties, I realized that they taught that He was begotten before all ages, the first of God's acts. I came to see that this was the universal opinion of the first and second-century Christians. This understanding persisted right into the fourth century

Now I understand that Jesus is the Son of God because God the Father begat Him as the first thing He ever did, and that that event marked the beginning of time.

We read in Colossians 1:15 :

He [God’s beloved Son ---vs 13] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. NASB

This seems to say rather clearly that the Son was the first being that God produced, and because He was “begotten not created” as we read in the hymn “Adeste Fideles” (O Come All Ye Faithful), He is the exact image of the Father’s essence (Heb 1:3)

The following translations render it “the firstborn of all creation” (as in the Greek):
NASB, ASV, Darby, RSV, ESV, ERV, and Revised Webster.

Interestingly, the Philips translation renders it, “He was born before creation began,”

The NIV and the NKJV render it “the firstborn over all creation” giving it a completely different meaning. There is nothing in Greek to justify the addition of the word “over”. One suspects that the translators were inserting a word in the phrase which reflects their theological bias.

The early catholics when instituting the first Christmas, (that is, the first “Christ’s Mass”), as a replacement for the Saturnalia celebrations, held three masses in honour of Christ:
1. The first to celebrate Christ’s “birth before all ages”
2. The second to celebrate Christ’s “birth from the virgin’s womb”
3. And the third to celebrate Christ’s “birth in the hearts of the faithful”.

In John 8:42, it is written: “Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I emerged out of God and come.” Though I have never seen it translated this way, this seems to be the literal meaning of the Greek.

ἐγω γαρ ἐκ ……..του θεου ἐξηλθον ….και…. ηκω
..Ι.....for..out of….the God.. emerged..and… come

The word I translated as “emerged” literally means “came out of”. Could Jesus have been referring to his having been brought forth from the Father at the beginning of time?

When I realized that the begetting of the Son before all ages seems to have been taught and believed by the apostles as well as the majority of Christians up to the late 4th century, I then understood that Luke in Acts 13:32-33, reports Paul quoting Psalm 2 to show that God begat Jesus at the beginning of time For the purpose of bringing the gospel to the world. Then in verse 34, he quotes another psalm to support the resurrection of Christ. The phrase “as for the fact” indicates that he is adding the matter of Christ’s resurrection to his initial affirmation.

32 And we bring you the good news that what God promised to the fathers,
33 this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus; as also it is written in the second psalm, ‘You are my Son, today I have begotten you.’
34 And as for the fact that he raised him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, he spoke in this way, ‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.’

Justin Martyr, a second century Chistian (110-165 A.D.) spent several days dialoguing with a Jewish man, Trypho, and his companions to show them that the ancient Hebrew Christians prophesied the coming of the Messiah, and that this Messiah was the Son of God, the Messiah, and that He was begotten (or generated) as the first of the Father's acts. He compared this generation to starting a small fire from a big one. This quote is taken from Justin's work called “Dialogue with Trypho”:

Chapter LXI—Wisdom is begotten of the Father, as fire from fire.
“I shall give you another testimony, my friends,” said I, “from the Scriptures, that God
begat before all creatures a Beginning, [who was] a certain rational power [proceeding]
from Himself, who is called by the Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the Lord, now the Son,
again Wisdom, again an Angel, then God, and then Lord and Logos; and on another occasion
He calls Himself Captain, when He appeared in human form to Joshua the son of Nave
(Nun). For He can be called by all those names, since He ministers to the Father’s will, and
since He was begotten of the Father by an act of will; just as we see happening among
ourselves: for when we give out some word, we beget the word; yet not by abscission, so as
to lessen the word [which remains] in us, when we give it out: and just as we see also
happening in the case of a fire, which is not lessened when it has kindled [another], but remains
the same; and that which has been kindled by it likewise appears to exist by itself, not
diminishing that from which it was kindled. The Word of Wisdom, who is Himself this
God begotten of the Father of all things, and Word, and Wisdom, and Power, and the Glory
of the Begetter, will bear evidence to me, when He speaks by Solomon the following: ‘If I
shall declare to you what happens daily, I shall call to mind events from everlasting, and
review them. The Lord made me the beginning of His ways for His works. From everlasting
He established me in the beginning, before He had made the earth, and before He had made
the deeps, before the springs of the waters had issued forth, before the mountains had been
established. Before all the hills He begets me. God made the country, and the desert, and
the highest inhabited places under the sky. When He made ready the heavens, I was along
with Him, and when He set up His throne on the winds: when He made the high clouds
strong, and the springs of the deep safe, when He made the foundations of the earth, I was
with Him arranging. I was that in which He rejoiced; daily and at all times I delighted in
His countenance, because He delighted in the finishing of the habitable world, and delighted
in the sons of men. Now, therefore, O son, hear me. Blessed is the man who shall listen to
me, and the mortal who shall keep my ways, watching daily at my doors, observing the posts of my ingoings. For my outgoings are the outgoings of life, and [my] will has been prepared by the Lord. But they who sin against me, trespass against their own souls; and they who hate me love death.' ”

So, as I now see it, Jesus, the only-begotten Son of God is another exactly like the God who begat Him, the exact image of the Father's essence. (Heb 1:3). Thus He reveals to us what God is really like. That's why, when Philip asked Jesus to show them the Father, He said, “He who has seen me has seen the Father.” Jesus wasn't saying that He WAS the Father, but that He was exactly like the Father.

Suppose I had two prints of a photo of myself taken from the same negative (or from the same file if a digital camera were used). I take the first out of my pocket and show you. Then I take out the other one, and say, “Here is another picture of me.” You might respond, “That's not another. That's the same picture.” Then I might say, “Look! (holding up the first print) here's one picture and (holding up the second picture) here's the other. There are two pictures.”

Nevetheless, if you've seen the first picture, you've seen the other. That's the sense in which Jesus meant, “If you've seen me, you've seen the Father.” They were two individual divine Beings, but yet exactly alike, so that if you know one of them, you know the other.

Trinitarianism did not become widespread until the fourth century. Even early Trinitarians understood Jesus as have been begotten before all ages. The Nicene Creed in it's original form (composed by Trinitarians) used the phrase:

THE NICENE CREED
As set forth at Nicea, A.D. 325

We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible; And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages, only begotten, that is, of the substance of the Father; God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one essence with the Father, through whom all things were made; both things in heaven and things on earth; who for us people, and for our salvation, came down, and was incarnate, and was made man; He suffered, and was raised again the third day, and ascended into heaven and he shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead.

Later Trinitarians, realized that “begotten of the Father before all ages” contradicted their Trinitarian understanding. So they changed the phrase in the Nicene Creed to “eternally begotten”.

You will find in the New Testament that the norm was to address prayer to the Father. The only prayer you find there addressed to Jesus was that of Stephen as he was dying from being stoned. He called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” You will find NO PRAYER addressed to the Holy Spirit.

So I don't think it matters much whether we address our prayers to the Father or to the Son. They are exactly alike, and I am sure if we talk to either of them, the other will be well aware of it.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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darinhouston
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Re: The Trinity from Communications Science

Post by darinhouston » Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:08 pm

[Moved thread on "worship" to its own thread and moved this whole topic to the forum on The Trinity]

https://theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=6202

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