How Translators Injected "the Third Person" into the New Testament

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darinhouston
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Re: How Translators Injected "the Third Person" into the New Testament

Post by darinhouston » Sun Mar 07, 2021 9:49 am

dwight92070 wrote:
Sun Mar 07, 2021 9:44 am
Paidon,

A better question would be, "What does the Bible mean when it refers to Jesus as God?" Moses, Isaiah, David, the sons of Korah (writers of some of the Psalms), Micah, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, the author of Hebrews,etc. - what did they mean by telling us over and over again that Jesus was God?

You mention confusion. We are not told anywhere in scripture that we can have a complete understanding of God Himself - especially while we are living here in these tents of flesh. Again, Paul called Christ God's mystery.

Dwight
What we do have is very clear teaching - the primary doctrine of the whole of Jewish and biblical teaching - that there is one God and that God is one and that God had a Son, the man Christ Jesus. Monotheism is the very root and core of our faith and everything Jesus did was out of obedience to and to bring honor and praise not to himself but to his father in heaven who anointed him with his power and whose obedience became the bridge to us back to our God. Anything that deviates from that very clear and pretty simple (if mysterious) teaching should be equally clear. So, when I see references like god in scripture that have other explanations, even numerous examples in connection with others that don't mean Yahweh, the Creator, I don't assume they mean Yahweh, the Creator. I don't like having ambiguities, but we don't always have answers to everything. So, when faced with such ambiguities, the burden isn't on the one saying "I don't know - perhaps it could mean X, but it is almost certainly not Y" - it is on the one saying "it means X" when that creates even more confusion and inconsistencies with clear teaching.

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Paidion
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Re: How Translators Injected "the Third Person" into the New Testament

Post by Paidion » Sun Mar 07, 2021 11:32 am

Thanks Darin. I appreciate the clarity of your statements.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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commonsense
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Re: How Translators Injected "the Third Person" into the New Testament

Post by commonsense » Sun Mar 07, 2021 2:38 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Sun Mar 07, 2021 9:07 am
I'm open to suggestions otherwise. But, further discourse on that subject might justify a separate topic.
Thanks, Darin. I'll start a new topic, but I'm not sure where it should go. Under Trinity?

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darinhouston
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Re: How Translators Injected "the Third Person" into the New Testament

Post by darinhouston » Sun Mar 07, 2021 4:26 pm

commonsense wrote:
Sun Mar 07, 2021 2:38 pm
darinhouston wrote:
Sun Mar 07, 2021 9:07 am
I'm open to suggestions otherwise. But, further discourse on that subject might justify a separate topic.
Thanks, Darin. I'll start a new topic, but I'm not sure where it should go. Under Trinity?
That should work. I guess General Bible would also have worked.

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dwight92070
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Re: How Translators Injected "the Third Person" into the New Testament

Post by dwight92070 » Sun Mar 07, 2021 10:15 pm

Trinitarianism is monotheistic. They do not say that there are 3 Gods. Even though the Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God, as the scripture clearly says, there is still only one God. Confusing? Maybe, but we can accept what the scripture says by faith, anyway. We can't understand it, but, not surprisingly, we can't fully understand God either. I don't understand how God has always existed - there never was a time when He did not exist, but again, that's because we can't understand God. But I still accept the Bible fact that God is eternal.

What do you do with Moses using the plural form of God "Elohim"? "Let Us make God in Our image."? The same form was used at the Tower of Babel.
That must be those nasty Trinitarian interpreters trying to deceive us again. Right?

Dwight

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dwight92070
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Re: How Translators Injected "the Third Person" into the New Testament

Post by dwight92070 » Sun Mar 07, 2021 10:33 pm

Correction: Obviously I misquoted. It should read "Let Us make MAN in Our image."

Darrell
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Re: How Translators Injected "the Third Person" into the New Testament

Post by Darrell » Mon Mar 08, 2021 11:52 am

Greeting all,
I appreciate the discussion.

"Dwight wrote:
I'll say it again, there's no such thing as "God's first act" - that implies that God had a beginning, which we know He did not"

"Paidion wrote: I don't see that there being a beginning to God's acts implies that God had a beginning."

"Dwight: Because His "first act" implies that He had He did no act before that, throughout an infinite amount of time OR that He wasn't around to do any acts before that. Thus, He had a beginning point, and then He performed His first act."

Concerning God's first act; any thoughts on the following verses?

Pro 8:22-31 KJV
22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was…

ESV
22The LORD possessed me at the beginning of his work,
the first of his acts of old.
23Ages ago I was set up,
at the first, before the beginning of the earth….

A glimpse of eternity pre-creation?

Additionally the Apostle Paul referring to Jesus as the power of God, and the wisdom of God. (1Co 1:24). Is that exclusively in regard to salvation or is He the power and wisdom of God in a greater / eternal sense?

Live Blest - d

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dwight92070
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Re: How Translators Injected "the Third Person" into the New Testament

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Mar 08, 2021 5:04 pm

In Proverbs 8 we have a personification of wisdom and understanding, as if they were a woman. Also included in her character and/or attributes are truth, prudence, righteousness, knowledge, discretion, humility, purity, counsel, justice, diligence, instruction, life, eternal existence, and delight in God. I suppose that just like a man naturally has a desire for a woman, so the writer is encouraging the reader to greatly desire all of these things.

Although Jesus was not a woman, He certainly embodies all of the above qualities and attributes and more - and so does God.
Yes, the New Testament tells us that Christ is the wisdom and power of God.

In Proverbs 8:23 it says: "From everlasting I was established ...". That it, from eternity past. In verses 24 and 25, the phrase "I was brought forth" appears. It seems to say that this woman had a beginning in time and space - but that cannot be the correct understanding, because she says that she's been around from eternity past.

However, let's assume that she had a beginning and that she represents Christ (which is not a good representation - she, being female and He, being male). So, if Christ, the wisdom and power of God, had a beginning, then did God NOT have wisdom and power before Christ was brought forth?
Obviously God has ALWAYS had ALL of the above attributes/character qualities and MORE from ETERNITY PAST.

So, Proverbs 8 is not so much a representation of Christ Himself, as it is an admonition to "seek first the kingdom of God and HIs righteousness", the very message that Christ taught us.

Darrell
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Re: How Translators Injected "the Third Person" into the New Testament

Post by Darrell » Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:33 am

Dwight thanks for the reply.
While I agree with your first paragraph, it seems the tenor of the chapter changes at Vs 22 -31. Wisdom no longer personified as a woman but as a first cause / beginning prior to Genesis 1 and then co- participant in the creation recorded in Genesis 1.

Do you see a correlation between the creation account, and Pro 8:22-31? Solomon (or the translators) presents the idea that wisdom was an active participant in creation:

8:30 Then I was beside Him, as a master workman; And I was His delight daily,Rejoicing always before Him, NASB

Then I am near Him, a workman, And I am a delight -- day by day. Rejoicing before Him at all times,YLT
(Wisdom self-existing, separate from but in the presence of Him - God)

Just as John does the word in
Jn 1:1-3 …. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.KJV (logos/him - masculine according to grammatical gender not natural)

Concerning Vs 23
everlasting - ʿōlām / aiōnios the debate is ongoing as to how it is to be understood from one verse to the next. It seems to me that most interpret the word based primarily on their eschatology or view of God's promises to Israel.

"Dwight :So, if Christ, the wisdom and power of God, had a beginning, then did God NOT have wisdom and power before Christ was brought forth?"

I don't view this as something that would have to be one way or the other. I think the greater question is can a Self-existing, Omnipotent Being take something from Himself and bring forth someone like Him in every way but separate and then declare "He is my power and wisdom, He is my Word" and call Himself One? Lastly, if something originates from something that in essence is everlasting, is it not everlasting?

Blessings - d

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Homer
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Re: How Translators Injected "the Third Person" into the New Testament

Post by Homer » Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:03 pm

John 1:1-14
New American Standard Bible 1995

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.
9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.


The inspired Apostle, I believe, has chosen the very best word to describe our Lord's existence prior to His being conceived in the womb of the virgin Mary. John informs us He was the Word. He was not the Son of God prior to that time, nor was He Jesus or messiah. "The Word" was entirely appropriate to describe Him; John informs us that the world was made through Him, as do:

1 Corinthians 8:6
New American Standard Bible 1995
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

Colossians 1:16
New American Standard Bible 1995
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

Hebrews 1:2
New American Standard Bible 1995
2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.


The scriptures plainly inform us of our Lord's involvement in creation. He was the Word; over and over in Genesis 1 we are informed that creation was accomplished by words; "then God said". God created by His Word.

And what are we to think of the appearances of the "Angel of the Lord" in the Old Testament? How is this to be explained? Are they not theophanies? Apparently God appeared to man in various forms (burning bush), the form of a man, spoke to man, identified Himself as God, was believed to be God, spoke to Hagar in the first person promising to make a great nation out of her descendants, prophesying about her son. I could go on with many examples.

I believe the "Angel of the Lord' to have been the pre-incarnate Christ, the "Word" as described by John. If these were appearances of God in human form, how can this be? We are clearly informed in scripture that God is Spirit and not visible, indeed has never been seen, and the Christian belief is that He is also omni-present (everywhere at once). Now if God can appear in the form of man at a particular place and time on multiple occasions, how can it be said that He could not become incarnated as His Son, born of the virgin Mary, and appear among man for some thirty years. After all, of the Word it is written:

Philippians 2:5-9
New American Standard Bible 1995
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,


And so the Word became flesh, died for our sins, and will forever be Jesus Christ.

IMO

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