How Translators Injected "the Third Person" into the New Testament

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Homer
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Re: How Translators Injected "the Third Person" into the New Testament

Post by Homer » Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:04 pm

John 1:1-14
New American Standard Bible 1995

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.
9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.


The inspired Apostle, I believe, has chosen the very best word to describe our Lord's existence prior to His being conceived in the womb of the virgin Mary. John informs us He was the Word. He was not the Son of God prior to that time, nor was He Jesus or messiah. "The Word" was entirely appropriate to describe Him; John informs us that the world was made through Him, as do:

1 Corinthians 8:6
New American Standard Bible 1995
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

Colossians 1:16
New American Standard Bible 1995
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

Hebrews 1:2
New American Standard Bible 1995
2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.


The scriptures plainly inform us of our Lord's involvement in creation. He was the Word; over and over in Genesis 1 we are informed that creation was accomplished by words; "then God said". God created by His Word.

And what are we to think of the appearances of the "Angel of the Lord" in the Old Testament? How is this to be explained? Are they not theophanies? Apparently God appeared to man in various forms (burning bush), the form of a man, spoke to man, identified Himself as God, was believed to be God, spoke to Hagar in the first person promising to make a great nation out of her descendants, prophesying about her son. I could go on with many examples.

I believe the "Angel of the Lord' to have been the pre-incarnate Christ, the "Word" as described by John. If these were appearances of God in human form, how can this be? We are clearly informed in scripture that God is Spirit and not visible, indeed has never been seen, and the Christian belief is that He is also omni-present (everywhere at once). Now if God can appear in the form of man at a particular place and time on multiple occasions, how can it be said that He could not become incarnated as His Son, born of the virgin Mary, and appear among man for some thirty years. After all, of the Word it is written:

Philippians 2:5-9
New American Standard Bible 1995
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,


And so the Word became flesh, died for our sins, and will forever be Jesus Christ.

IMO

commonsense
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Re: How Translators Injected "the Third Person" into the New Testament

Post by commonsense » Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:20 am

Homer wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:04 pm
2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
Homer, When God created man, he was made in God's image and given rule over the earth and everything in it.The first Son of God was Adam(Luke 3:38) Like God, we create as well.
Homer wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:04 pm
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
What this is saying to me is that equality with God means being a servant to others. This is a very strange concept, one that Adam didn't seem to get. Unlike Adam,who thought that being "like" God meant that he could make his own rules and do whatever he wanted, Jesus was a servant, an example of what a man "made in God's image" acts like.

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darinhouston
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Re: How Translators Injected "the Third Person" into the New Testament

Post by darinhouston » Sat Mar 13, 2021 8:11 am

commonsense wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:20 am
What this is saying to me is that equality with God means being a servant to others. This is a very strange concept, one that Adam didn't seem to get. Unlike Adam,who thought that being "like" God meant that he could make his own rules and do whatever he wanted, Jesus was a servant, an example of what a man "made in God's image" acts like.
This is a good example where, if untrue, the Trinitarian understandings of these passages hides some possible revelations which are quite beautiful in God's economy. The unitarian understanding of this John 1 passage basically says that Jesus wasn't a mistake, he was the whole point. God, knowing what would happen with the first Adam, provided a second Adam, a man like the first who would show - after mankind fails utterly - to "do it right" and be an example to us how it can work while also enabling us through his spirit to do so. He was different in that he was made made but was born (again, to be like us) yet without the damage of sin since Adam had to be born directly of God (this is the type of mystery we see in Scripture -- one where the "what" and "why" is clearly and plainly taught but for which we don't understand the "how") .

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Homer
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Re: How Translators Injected "the Third Person" into the New Testament

Post by Homer » Sat Mar 13, 2021 12:15 pm

Commonsense wrote:
Homer, When God created man, he was made in God's image and given rule over the earth and everything in it.The first Son of God was Adam(Luke 3:38) Like God, we create as well.
I completely miss the point. Help me out here. My hobby was woodworking; I "created" furniture, birds "create" nests. I do not see your analogy as being applicable.

In the Philippians passage the word "equal" in the statement "equality with God" is the Greek word morphe which does not represent any subjective idea. Jesus ("the Word") was objectively equal with God.
What this is saying to me is that equality with God means being a servant to others.
Here we have a non-sequitur. The Word was equal with God as a servant but he gave that up to come to earth and be a servant?

Darin wrote:
This is a good example where, if untrue, the Trinitarian understandings of these passages....
What is "untrue" referring to, the example or Trinitarian understandings?

It seems to me there was no response at all to the points made in my last post, i.e. Jesus role in creation, theophanies.

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Paidion
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Post by Paidion » Sat Mar 13, 2021 3:16 pm

Dwight wrote:In Proverbs 8:23 it says: "From everlasting I was established ...". That it, from eternity past. In verses 24 and 25, the phrase "I was brought forth" appears. It seems to say that this woman had a beginning in time and space - but that cannot be the correct understanding, because she says that she's been around from eternity past.
I have never studied Hebrew, but not all translations have "from everlasting":

Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth. (NRSV)
From the age I was anointed, from the first, from former states of the earth. (YLT Young's Literal Translation)


******************************************************************************************************************************************************************

Now, a day later, it occurred to me to check the Septuagint (the translation from the Hebrew to the Greek)
Here is my translation of Proverbs 8:23 in the Septuagint:

Before the age, He established me in the beginning.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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commonsense
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Re: How Translators Injected "the Third Person" into the New Testament

Post by commonsense » Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:20 pm

Homer wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 12:15 pm
I completely miss the point. Help me out here. My hobby was woodworking; I "created" furniture, birds "create" nests. I do not see your analogy as being applicable.
Homer, God didn't create pagan gods or build temples these gods. He didn't create the "Tower of Babel" for example. Such things weren't created by the Son of God either. They were created by the imaginations and words of others. The Son of God creates things through the word of God (Love for others as ourselves). We judge by this word and create and rule accordingly. For example, we create relationships, families, communities, places such as hospitals etc.etc.Jesus was the Word in the sense that He was the "living word" of God brought to life in all that He said and did.

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darinhouston
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Re: How Translators Injected "the Third Person" into the New Testament

Post by darinhouston » Sun Mar 14, 2021 12:42 pm

Homer wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:04 pm
John 1:1-14
New American Standard Bible 1995

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.
9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.


The inspired Apostle, I believe, has chosen the very best word to describe our Lord's existence prior to His being conceived in the womb of the virgin Mary. John informs us He was the Word. He was not the Son of God prior to that time, nor was He Jesus or messiah. "The Word" was entirely appropriate to describe Him; John informs us that the world was made through Him, as do:

1 Corinthians 8:6
New American Standard Bible 1995
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

Colossians 1:16
New American Standard Bible 1995
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

Hebrews 1:2
New American Standard Bible 1995
2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.


The scriptures plainly inform us of our Lord's involvement in creation. He was the Word; over and over in Genesis 1 we are informed that creation was accomplished by words; "then God said". God created by His Word.

And what are we to think of the appearances of the "Angel of the Lord" in the Old Testament? How is this to be explained? Are they not theophanies? Apparently God appeared to man in various forms (burning bush), the form of a man, spoke to man, identified Himself as God, was believed to be God, spoke to Hagar in the first person promising to make a great nation out of her descendants, prophesying about her son. I could go on with many examples.

I believe the "Angel of the Lord' to have been the pre-incarnate Christ, the "Word" as described by John. If these were appearances of God in human form, how can this be? We are clearly informed in scripture that God is Spirit and not visible, indeed has never been seen, and the Christian belief is that He is also omni-present (everywhere at once). Now if God can appear in the form of man at a particular place and time on multiple occasions, how can it be said that He could not become incarnated as His Son, born of the virgin Mary, and appear among man for some thirty years. After all, of the Word it is written:

Philippians 2:5-9
New American Standard Bible 1995
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,


And so the Word became flesh, died for our sins, and will forever be Jesus Christ.

IMO
That's a lot in one post - good questions and perhaps you could start separate topics for them so they can be discussed more efficiently. As to theophanies, that's a big topic and each situation deserves its own discussion. In general, though, it's quite speculative (even if conventional/traditional) to suggest angel of the lord refers to Jesus. Theophanies, themselves, probably should be in a different forum (not specific to Trinity) where the Angel of the Lord passages might be relevant here.

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darinhouston
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Re: How Translators Injected "the Third Person" into the New Testament

Post by darinhouston » Sun Mar 14, 2021 12:52 pm

Homer wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:04 pm
John 1:1-14
New American Standard Bible 1995

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.
9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

The inspired Apostle, I believe, has chosen the very best word to describe our Lord's existence prior to His being conceived in the womb of the virgin Mary. John informs us He was the Word. He was not the Son of God prior to that time, nor was He Jesus or messiah. "The Word" was entirely appropriate to describe Him; John informs us that the world was made through Him, as do:
This is another "very big" topic on pre-existence and interpretations of John 1. This definitely needs a separate topic but has also been discussed quite a bit here. Basically, I do not believe this necessarily describes Jesus' pre-existence. The LOGOS pre-existed (whatever that is - and if it was even a "tangible thing" that could have pre-existence). It also doesn't say the LOGOS was Jesus, but that it became enfleshed in the man Jesus (again big translation challenges with this passage). But, beyond that, there is much to discuss not least of which is even if it proves pre-existence in some form of Jesus that doesn't mean he was the God of the Old Testament.

Also, "apart from [the LOGOS] nothing came into being" doesn't mean that the LOGOS (whether equated with Jesus or not) CREATED. Nothing was created "apart from it." That is a much more general statement and is consistent with the larger semantic range of LOGOS (like SOPHIA) -- all that was created was "from the beginning" in the mind and plan and foreknowledge of God and nothing happened that wasn't pre-ordained. That could well be the meaning. There are good explanations of this verse in connection with the "NEW CREATION" as contrasted with the original creation where this also makes sense. Big topic. Thousands of years of tradition and presupposition is hard to overcome.

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darinhouston
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Re: How Translators Injected "the Third Person" into the New Testament

Post by darinhouston » Sun Mar 14, 2021 1:26 pm

Homer wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:04 pm
Now if God can appear in the form of man at a particular place and time on multiple occasions, how can it be said that He could not become incarnated as His Son, born of the virgin Mary, and appear among man for some thirty years. After all, of the Word it is written:
No one says God couldn't do any such thing. The question is whether Scripture reveals this. But, no Trinitarian I'm aware of believes God merely "appeared" as a theophany in the life of the man Jesus.

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darinhouston
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Re: How Translators Injected "the Third Person" into the New Testament

Post by darinhouston » Sun Mar 14, 2021 1:29 pm

Homer wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:04 pm
After all, of the Word it is written:

Philippians 2:5-9
New American Standard Bible 1995
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,


And so the Word became flesh, died for our sins, and will forever be Jesus Christ.
This passage is referring to the man, Christ Jesus. Not the WORD/LOGOS.

So many things to say about this text - for one, he was "exalted" after and as a result of his obedience and not least this name was given to him - not restored to him or something like that.

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