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Did God Have to Die on the Cross?
Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:54 am
by darinhouston
This is largely a philosophical discussion because there is no direct teaching on it in scripture. It is often said as a support of the divinity of Jesus (at least in the sense of a co-equal co-eternal person of the godhead) that his death would not have been an effective atonement for our sin if he weren't "God Himself" dying on the cross. I don't see this as a logically supportable premise. But, let's assume that for the sake of this discussion. This is, it seems, an implicit theory from scripture and it would be a good separate conversation, but let's just deal with the consequence of that position, assuming it to be true.
So, if this is true, then I have a few questions:
- can God actually die? If not, then how does it solve your atonement issue for Jesus to have been fully God and fully man while the "God" part (whatever that means) didn't die?
- if you have an argument that it was only Jesus' human nature that died on the cross...
- how is it that a "nature" can be said to die?
- do you believe Jesus was two "persons" and that one "person" (the human Jesus) died while the other didn't? Explain...
- if you have some other position on how this can be said to have worked out in trinitarian theology, please explain.
Re: Did God Have to Die on the Cross?
Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:40 pm
by Paidion
Well... I think I have made my position clear. Although Jesus is not "God Himself", He is divine because He is the ONLY Son of God.
Your son is human like yourself (his father). God's Son is divine like Himself (His Father).
Here are some passages which speak of Jesus' death, some of which give the reason for His death
Ro 5:6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
Ro 5:8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died;
2Co 5:15 and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.
Ga 2:21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
Php 2:30 for he nearly died for the work of Christ, risking his life to complete what was lacking in your service to me.
1Th 5:10 who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him.
It seems to me that the reason given for Christ's death was to provide enabling grace for mankind, so that everyone who receives this enablement might have the ability to reject wrongdoing and to live righteously.
Re: Did God Have to Die on the Cross?
Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:49 pm
by Homer
Darin,
You asked:
if you have an argument that it was only Jesus' human nature that died on the cross...
how is it that a "nature" can be said to die?
I would replace "nature" with "body".
do you believe Jesus was two "persons" and that one "person" (the human Jesus) died while the other didn't? Explain...
Consider:
Matthew 12:40
New American Standard Bible
40. for just as Jonah was in the stomach of the sea monster for three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights.
The analogy between Jesus in the grave and Jonah in the fish would seem to be three days and that both remained alive. We know Jonah prayed while in the fish. We are not told if he became unconscious. And of Jesus' we are told:
1 Peter 3:18-19
New American Standard Bible
18 For Christ also suffered for sins once for all time, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which He also went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison,
It appears that Jesus suffered death bodily but His spirit remained alive.
Re: Did God Have to Die on the Cross?
Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:24 am
by dwight92070
Paidion wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:40 pm
Well... I think I have made my position clear. Although Jesus is not "God Himself", He is divine because He is the ONLY Son of God.
Your son is human like yourself (his father). God's Son is divine like Himself (His Father).
Dwight - That's double-talk - saying that Jesus is divine but He is not God Himself. Maybe you should publish your own dictionary. Either Jesus is divine and He is God, or He is not divine and He is not God. You have created a category for Jesus that is not found in the Bible. But then, why stop now, defining your doctrine by what you want to believe?
Dwight - When Jesus told Peter and his companions to put his boat out for a catch and to cast his net, and when their nets caught 153 fish, was that a miracle that any believer could perform if he had enough faith? In the history of mankind, we've never heard of anyone with great faith who did anything close to that. Why? Because only God, the Creator of all fish, could direct 153 fish to immediately converge to the location of Peter's nets. Jesus seems to unveil His true identity at times throughout His ministry. He is the Creator!
Re: Did God Have to Die on the Cross?
Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:06 am
by Paidion
Dwight wrote:That's double-talk - saying that Jesus is divine but He is not God Himself. Maybe you should publish your own dictionary. Either Jesus is divine and He is God, or He is not divine and He is not God.
And that's simpleton's talk—saying that Jesus cannot be divine unless He is God.
"Adam" is the Hebrew word for "man" or "human".
The first created human was Adam.
As one of the sons of man, Dwight is human, but not Adam himself.
As the Son of God, Jesus is divine but not God Himself.
Re: Did God Have to Die on the Cross?
Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:48 pm
by Homer
Hi Paidion,
You wrote:
As one of the sons of man, Dwight is human, but not Adam himself.
As the Son of God, Jesus is divine but not God Himself.
Do you see God as descriptive of an office, position of authority, etc., or is the term in regard to His essence? If it refers to the latter it would seem that there is two who are God unless we have something like the trinity.
Re: Did God Have to Die on the Cross?
Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:56 pm
by Paidion
Homer wrote:Do you see God as descriptive of an office, position of authority, etc., or is the term in regard to His essence? If it refers to the latter it would seem that there is two who are God unless we have something like the trinity.
I see "God" as a term with which to refers only to the great Creator, although He may have created some things
through His Son.
I believe there is only one God—the Father, though Jesus is His Son (God having begotten Him as the first of His acts).
In that sense, Jesus in the ONLY begotten Son of God. It is that fact that makes it appropriate to say that Jesus is divine (and none other).
God created angels. They are not divine. Other than God Himself, only Jesus, the only-begotten Son, is divine.
Re: Did God Have to Die on the Cross?
Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:16 pm
by darinhouston
We're drifting from the original post again. I asked that we assume the divinity of Jesus is in the sense of a co-equal co-eternal person of the godhead. This isn't the place to debate divinity.
Re: Did God Have to Die on the Cross?
Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:26 pm
by Homer
Darin,
Any response to my post of last Friday? I think its on topic.
Re: Did God Have to Die on the Cross?
Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 7:23 am
by darinhouston
Homer wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:26 pm
Darin,
Any response to my post of last Friday? I think its on topic.
Are you suggesting a form of “Spirit Christology” ? That’s a very different thing from traditional Trinitarianism and is a completely different discussion.
But, on your assumption that his spirit didn’t experience “death” — what is death exactly (of the sort we experienced after the fall and which Jesus came to restore)? If that means that we have spiritual separation from God, then if Jesus didn’t experience that upon his death on the cross, then he didn’t experience the sort of death that is relevant to “dying on our behalf.” I don’t think we have warrant to assume that the analogy with Jonah is to be taken so far as to keep Jesus alive during those 3 days - otherwise, that would seem to negate most traditional views of the atonement, I would think. I don't necessarily have a problem with that (as I feel most atonement views sort of miss the point).
I do note from the 1 Peter passage that Jesus was “made alive” in the spirit - that does assume I think that he wasn’t spiritually alive in the same sense at least immediately preceding that moment of making proclamation.
Also, if all that died was Jesus' human body, then in what sense could it possibly be said that "God" died on the cross?