The Narrow Path Ministries

There cannot be a "first act of God". God is eternal, and going by Jesus' words, apparently He has always acted. John 5:17 - "My Father is working until now (that would be about 4000 years at the time of Jesus speaking these words - that's a LOT of work! Obviously that's not even counting eternity past), and I Myself am working."

Also God tells us not to be lazy, so we know that He is not lazy.

But, as far as Jesus being the Son of God, I agree with Paidon, that He is unique. There never was a "son of God" like Him before or after. No other son of God was born like He was. Apart from Jesus, no other son of God could even exist, because HE MADE THEM.

All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Dwight you wrote:There cannot be a "first act of God".

Is that is true, can you specify in what acts God might have performed prior to the creation of the heavenly bodies (planets, moons, stars, etc.) as well as prior to the creation of angels, people, animals, plants, etc.?

dwight92070 wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 11, 2021 9:07 am

My Father is working until now

So, what do you think God is doing? I'd say that He was working in the hearts and minds of the people, directing their paths and raising them up in the way they should walk.



God was making sons of God before Jesus. What do you think He was doing through Abraham and Moses? He was creating a holy people for His own possession.

commonsense wrote:God was making sons of God before Jesus.

Well, here are 5 verses from the ESV translation that indicate that Jesus is God's ONLY Son. Use your common sense.

Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
1Jo 4:9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him.

Paidion wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 11, 2021 10:12 am

Dwight you wrote:There cannot be a "first act of God".

Is that is true, can you specify in what acts God might have performed prior to the creation of the heavenly bodies (planets, moons, stars, etc.) as well as prior to the creation of angels, people, animals, plants, etc.?

Dwight - Obviously, no human can answer that. What you are describing is all that we know - whatever is beyond that, only God knows. But we do have scriptural evidence, that I referred to, that appears to indicate that God keeps busy.

Paidion wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 11, 2021 10:12 am

Apart from Jesus, no other son of God could even exist, because HE MADE THEM.

To Commonsense:
From Dwight - There you go again, misquoting. The above quote are My words, NOT Paidons.

darinhouston>>>I remain unconvinced - your saying it does not make it so. Many scholars disagree with you as to this passage "identifying" the Word "as God" from a linguistic perspective.<<<

Hmmm...I'm not “just saying it” with empty words. I do offer quite a bit of content from a natural theology perspective that is presented to us from a “hard science” investigation of the nature of reality. What's more, we both have “allies” in our disagreement here, and as far as “my saying it does not make it so,” so also does “saying it is not so make it not so.” So...at a minimum we are on a level (battle)field. And since we have learned that the “weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God,” we can fight (the way) the good fight ends : in glory to God. This is an internal family disagreement we have, and I expect that the natural affection of His Spirit's Presence will see us through to that end.

darinhouston>>>Associated closely with God is not the same thing as "being God." Moreover, apart from the linguistic aspects of numerical identity with God, I believe the context and cultural milieu into which John was preaching this gospel suggests a different (and more compelling/understandable) interpretation of this entire preamble (consistent with much of the rest of John's Gospel as well as the apologetic emphasis of his epistles).<<<

Once again, and I (almost) apologize for seeming to “run” to this, I take Steve's lecture on this matter, within a strictly biblical reference frame, as being almost exhaustive, and certainly excellent. My purpose here is to come along side the historic arguments, and the inspired biblical rationale, for the TriUnity view of the Godhead, and show how, in our days, (the discovery of) the true nature of our created reality cries out that it is so. We (thoughtful) trinitarians see the “entire preamble” of this Gospel as the foundation and fountain of our salvation because “the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God.” That which is beneath these inspired words, that which causes these words, transcends ALL that is created. Just as it is God Who creates all, so is it His Actual Presence that saves, and perfects it (continues and completes it to perfection). Yes, we are perfected in Christ Jesus the SON, because it is in the SON that we “we live, and move, and have our being.”

darinhouston>>>Colossians is a tricky passage for the unitarian, but they have a variety of quite reasonable explanations for what is in view here -- not literally "all" of creation, but within the context of the broader Colossians discussion, the creation of the Church and the spiritual and physical aspects of the new creation.<<<

Though I continually defer to Steve's lectures for the biblical rationale of the trinitarian position I am more than happy to discuss particular biblical verses that you reference. So, here is a short (trinitarian) commentary on Colossians 1:15-19 :

>>>(15)“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.<<<

In His desire to create I AM knows, of course, what He wants : to Father children in His image and likeness. He sees (knows) Himself as FATHER of a CHILD Who IS the Reason (Logos) for His labor. There is no creation (yet), all there IS is Uncreated Being : I AM IS what He desires TO BE to accomplish His creative desire. I AM IS this FATHER, I AM IS this SON. This Father / Son dynamic IS His Creative State of Being. There is no escape from a pantheistic view of Creation if you do not posit an “otherness” to this dynamic because ALL creation is to occur “IN the SON (Logos).”

>>>(16)For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.<<<

By (through) His Existence, and IN His Existence, ALL things that are created have their being, and the purpose of the existence of all things is that they (are to) work together for the good of fulfilling the fullness of Him (the Logos).

>>>(17)And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.<<<

He is (already) there “before” the beginning, and He, Himself, is the “place” where the Beginning happens. We Trinitarians understand that “in the beginning” the Word already was and the Word was God . That is, He was not, as some would have it, the beginning (the start) of the creation of God, rather He was the “place” where the beginning occurred : He WAS, and creation started IN Him.

>>>(18)And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.<<<

I don't think there is anything here we differ over.

>>>(19)For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell....”<<<

Creation itself is the fulfillment of God Himself, that perfect expression of His own Nature and Being. It is the expression of the JOY that He experiences in Being, and that expression is The Body of Christ!
Love in (and because of) Jesus.

We (thoughtful) trinitarians see the “entire preamble” of this Gospel as the foundation and fountain of our salvation because “the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God.”

You thoughtful trinitarians will need to be a bit more thoughtful.
Here is a word for word translation of the Greek. In English the word "logos" should be translated as "expression" rather than "word".
Jesus is the expression of God.

But if you prefer to retain the Greek word "logos", it could be translated as follows:

In the beginning was the logos and the logos was with the God and God was the logos

The first occurrence of "God" is preceded by the article (the). This indicates that it refers to the only true God (the Father).
The second occurrence of "God" is NOT preceded by the article. That indicates that it is more like an adjective.
"The logos was divine (or "God-like)" It should NOT be translated as "the logos WAS God", that is, that the logos was God the Father.

Darin,

You wrote:

Many scholars disagree with you as to this passage "identifying" the Word "as God" from a linguistic perspective.

Could you inform as to who they are? I'd like to see how they come to their conclusion.