Creation / Evolution Books?

[brian]

I have listened to Steve Gregg's mp3 files on evolution, but those were done over a decade ago. He cites a lot of books in the course of the series, but I am wondering if since then there have been more up to date works published that people have found useful. I assume to evolution debate has made some advances since then...

Some of the questions I have that did not get touched upon too much in Steve's series that maybe some book or some of you might be able to help me with are :

1) The age of the earth. How do scientists test and come up with millions and millions of years old as the date of the earth? Every discovery I read of recently always has a date in millions of years... and I realize some of this is based on the index fossils, but that can't be the only thing. And how does that harmonize with the Bible if at all?

2) Dinosaurs. Steve says they are just animals so that they shouldn't be deemed to not exist during the times of humans. In this case, what happened such that a whole class of similar types of giant as well as small reptiles all got wiped out? Yes, we still have lizards and gila monsters, but what is the Biblical way to account for how such a large segment of similar types of animals disappeared if they were all concurrent with every other animal and humans?

3) What are the humanoid type fossils that are found? Evolutionists say they are early man evolving from apes.

Steve, if you want to weigh in too that would be much appreciated as well. Thanks for your help everyone.

[TK]

are you looking for answers from the young earth creationist side or the old earth creationist side? or both?

TK

[darinhouston]

http://www.reasons.org

[TK]

reasons.org noted by darin is hugh ross's site (an astrophysicist and old earth creationist) Hugh ross's books "creation and the cosmos", "creation and time" and "the Genesis question" discuss the old earth postion.

Ken ham's site- http://www.answersingenesis.com, will give the young earth perspective on all the issues you raised (and i'm sure provides sources for further study).

TK

[mattrose]

Yes, if you're interested in the Young Earth position (which it sounds like you might be based on the questions you asked), then I'd recommend "The Answers Book" from Ken Ham's ministry, linked above. Each chapter answers a specific question (what about carbon-14 dating? how can we see distant stars in a young universe? who was cain's wife? was noah's flood global? how did all the animals fit in the ark? how did different races arise? what happened to the dinosaurs? etc)

[Paidion]

Steve says they are just animals so that they shouldn't be deemed to not exist during the times of humans. In this case, what happened such that a whole class of similar types of giant as well as small reptiles all got wiped out? Yes, we still have lizards and gila monsters, but what is the Biblical way to account for how such a large segment of similar types of animals disappeared if they were all concurrent with every other animal and humans?

It seems to be the case that prior to the world-wide flood, the atmospheric pressure was double what it is today. The oxygen level was 30% rather than the present 20% (some say 21%). Dinosaurs simply could not survive present atmospheric conditions.

I saw a video once of a huge hyperbaric chamber constructed in Texas to simulate pre-flood atmospheric conditions. It was stated on the video that cherry tomato plants grew very high in the chamber and produced regular sized fruits. Persons with medical conditions which normally require many days to heal, healed in a few hours of being in the chamber. The last I heard, they were going to put Gila lizards in the chamber for an extended period of time to see whether it would grow into a small dinosaur.

If you google "hyperbaric chamber", you can get a lot of information. Small chambers are used in hospitals which facilitate rapid healing. The pressure is usually about 2 atmospheres, but the oxygen level is much higher than 30%. However, the patient is usually placed in the chamber for only a short period of time.

[Don]

Brian...recently came accross a website called, drdino.com, you might give it a
look.
It's creation evangalism...
For what it's worth.
Don.

[darinhouston]

I personally find most of the young earth "scientists" pretty "hokey." I get the impression that they say to themselves (intentionally or not) "Hey... if the larger scientific community can use such poor science and poor logic to convince themselves and the world of evolution, etc., then so can we -- we can sound just as scientific as they do and no one should hold us to a higher standard, so as long as we can support our findings using the same poor logic and conclusions and sound scientific doing so, then let's go it because we're doing it in the name of God."

I think on balance such an evangelical approach may do more harm than good -- some will be convinced, but they're probably already YEC evangelicals anyway and simply are reinforced by such things. But such edification and reassurance comes at a cost -- a cost to unbelievers who look at such things and scoff at them in reinforcing the notion that they are just "flat earth" silly Christians. Basically, I question the practical evangelical benefit in reaching those for Christ with such an approach.

[darinhouston]

The below is fairly typical of the approach taken by Ross. He seems at least to try and let both specific and general revelation speak and is not trying simply to shoehorn science into a particular paradigm/interpretation of the bible. This is edification of the sort that doesn't give rise to the sort of ridicule common to the YEC group.

CONTINENTAL LANDMASS GROWTH AND THE GENESIS 1 CHRONOLOGY

by Hugh Ross

Posted Oct. 8 2007

Thanks to a spectacular new discovery concerning the geophysical history of the earth, one more detail in biblical author Moses' chronology of Earth’s creation history has been scientifically verified. The breakthrough yields yet more evidence for the divine inspiration of the Bible’s words and message. First, let me offer some personal background for this discovery.

I signed my name in the back of a Gideon Bible late one August night in 1964, thereby committing my life to Jesus Christ. This commitment was based "to a large extent" on the evidence I had accumulated for the truthfulness of the Bible’s content and message. Much of that evidence consisted of several dozen Bible passages wherein future scientific discoveries were accurately predicted thousands of years in advance of the discoveries.

There were two passages in the Genesis 1 creation account, however, that at the time I had to place in the unresolved anomaly category. Genesis 1:2 implied that islands and continents either did not exist on early Earth or they covered an insignificant fraction of Earth’s surface. Genesis 1:9-10 placed the period of most aggressive continental landmass growth within creation day three; that is, roughly halfway through God’s creative activity on Earth. The problem with these two passages was that in the early 1960s the prevailing view among geologists and geophysicists was that continental landmasses, though shifting in position and shape, had covered a large fraction of Earth’s surface throughout Earth’s history.

This view, though troublesome, did not disturb my faith in an inerrant Bible. I was aware that the view lacked physical evidence and that a detailed plate tectonic model for the history of Earth’s crust had been developed for only the past 0.25 billion years. Thus, I adopted a wait-and-see approach to the supposed anomaly.

During the 1980s and especially the 1990s geophysicists had determined most of the physical and chemical processes that operate through plate tectonic activity to transform ocean floor basalts into continental silicates. The researchers demonstrated that indeed virtually all of the silicates on Earth came from these processes. This meant that Earth must have begun as a water world in which water covered the entirety of its surface. Further, the rates at which these processes operate implied that it took a few billion years for the continents to build up to their present sizes.

These discoveries and analyses by geophysicists proved consistent with advances taking place in paleontology. These advances showed that Earth’s first life was strictly marine life and that terrestrial life appeared much later in the fossil record. The net result of these discoveries, analyses, and advances was to vindicate the bold statements made in Genesis 1 about the history of Earth’s oceans and continents, thereby providing yet one more piece of evidence for the Bible’s power to accurately and consistently predict future scientific discoveries thousands of years in advance of their time.

One detail about continental buildup remained to be put to a scientific test. Genesis 1:9-10 seems to imply that it was during creation day three that Earth experienced the most dramatic episodes of continental landmass growth. Now, a team of British geologists and geophysicists has demonstrated through osmium isotope measures that Earth’s continental crust didn't grow gradually and roughly linearly through time but rather it advanced through a series of pulses.1

Geologists have noted for some time that much of Earth’s continental crust dates to be one of four specific ages, namely, 1.2, 1.9, 2.7, and 3.3 billion years, with the first three dates being predominant. Since large upper mantle melting events are known to trigger the growth of continental crust formation, the British research team used measures of the rhenium-187 to osmium-187 ratios to track and date upper mantle melt events. They discovered that these upper mantle melt events cluster around three specific ages: 1.2, 1.9, and 2.7 billion years ago. The fact that these dates coincide with the ages for most of Earth’s continental crust provides strong evidence for (1) "the pulsed models of continental growth by means of large-scale mantle melting events,"2 and (2) dramatic growth of continental landmasses at approximately the halfway point during the history of life on Earth.

In confirming that the most dramatic growth of continental landmasses occurred at about the halfway point in life’s history on Earth, the British research team also vindicated Genesis author Moses. His chronology was correct in describing a past period of aggressive continental landmass growth and in dating that period as occurring on creation day three (out of the total of six creation days). Thus, the discoveries made by the British earth science research team illustrate how the more we learn about science the more reasons we uncover for belief in the Bible as the inspired error-free word of God.

D. G. Pearson, S. W. Parman, and G. M. Nowell, "A Link Between Large Mantle Melting Events and Continent Growth Seen In Osmium Isotopes," Nature 449 (September 13, 2007): 202-05.
Pearson, Parman, and Nowell, 202.

[Paidion]

I personally find most of the young earth "scientists" pretty "hokey." I get the impression that they say to themselves (intentionally or not) "Hey... if the larger scientific community can use such poor science and poor logic to convince themselves and the world of evolution, etc., then so can we -- we can sound just as scientific as they do and no one should hold us to a higher standard, so as long as we can support our findings using the same poor logic and conclusions and sound scientific doing so, then let's go it because we're doing it in the name of God."

Darin do you find The Institute of Creation Research "hokey"?

I suggest a thorough investigation of their materials. There are many highly qualified, academically degreed scientists among them.

The Institute of Creation Research