On another forum which is mainly an atheist/agnostic forum, (whatever you define the two), I came across a thread where this guy had a post of so called "contradictions" between Jesus and Paul. It was more like, Jesus verses Paul, Jesus verses Peter, Peter verses Paul, but for now we can focus on the Jesus verse Paul. To be honest, 90% of them are so weak, more like forced contradictions. Just for fun though, I copied them to microsoft works to do research on them, and eventually will more than likely create a websight with answers to them after going through them all. I have many, but is it ok if I post one at a time, and proceed to the next after a conclusive answer has been given? It that ok Steve? Soon as I get the green flag, we can do this together. Sound good? Wanna have some fun people?
SoaringEagle
Jesus verse Paul
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_SoaringEagle
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Jesus verse Paul
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_SoaringEagle
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First, I want to get the "good to go" from Steve, even if he chooses not to participate in this thread. Also, I would "proceed with caution" when dealing with some of this stuff. For we wrestle not with flesh and blood, but with evil forces, and you can experience some serious warfare when dealing with such things. That's why even if I get the good to go, I am only going to post one at a time so no one will be overwhelmed.
S.E.
S.E.
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Soaring Eagle,
You certainly have my okay to post them. That is pretty much what this category is inviting. I will be involved, though I may not have time to address each of them. There are plenty of competent contributors here who are able to handle this kind of thing. Go for it.
You certainly have my okay to post them. That is pretty much what this category is inviting. I will be involved, though I may not have time to address each of them. There are plenty of competent contributors here who are able to handle this kind of thing. Go for it.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
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_SoaringEagle
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(1) Jesus--"Go not into the way of the Gentiles" (Matt. 10:5) and "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt. 15:24), and "...for salvation is of the Jews" (John 4:22) versus Paul--"For so the Lord has commanded us, saying, I have set you to be a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the uttermost parts of the earth" (Acts 13:47) and "from henceforth, I (Paul--Ed.) will go unto the Gentiles" (Acts 18:6) and "that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it" (Acts 28:28 ) and "that I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles" (Rom. 15:16) and "that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ" (Eph. 3:8 ) and (Acts 20:21, 26:17-18, 20, 23, 22:21, Rom. 1:5, 13, 3:29, 11:11-13, 15:9, Gal. 2:2, 7-9, 3:14, Eph. 3:6, 1 Tim. 2:7, 3:16, 2 Tim. 4:17).
Jesus told his followers not to go to the Gentiles and Paul countermanded the order.
Jesus told his followers not to go to the Gentiles and Paul countermanded the order.
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_Blind Beggar
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Isn't proof texting fun :-).
Matt 10:5 -- The context is not instruction in some universal far-reaching command, but instruction for a short-term training trip Jesus sent the 12 disciple out on. He finishes this section with: "When Jesus had finished instructing his twelve disciples, he went on from there to teach and preach in their cities." He wanted them to focus this trip on the Jews, not other groups.
Matt. 15:24 -- Has nothing to do with instructions to his disciples. Further, Israel is certainly not limited to the Jews, but includes all God's people including the gentiles who believe (Romans 9).
John 4:22 -- Salvation is OF the Jews, not FOR the Jews. OF means FROM or THROUGH. Salvation came from or through the Jews in the form of Jesus the Messiah.
Matt 10:5 -- The context is not instruction in some universal far-reaching command, but instruction for a short-term training trip Jesus sent the 12 disciple out on. He finishes this section with: "When Jesus had finished instructing his twelve disciples, he went on from there to teach and preach in their cities." He wanted them to focus this trip on the Jews, not other groups.
Matt. 15:24 -- Has nothing to do with instructions to his disciples. Further, Israel is certainly not limited to the Jews, but includes all God's people including the gentiles who believe (Romans 9).
John 4:22 -- Salvation is OF the Jews, not FOR the Jews. OF means FROM or THROUGH. Salvation came from or through the Jews in the form of Jesus the Messiah.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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I completely agree with Blind Beggar.
Also, another transtlation of Matthew 10:5-6 worded alittle differently...
5These twelve Jesus sent out, instructing them, "Go nowhere among the Gentiles and enter no town of the Samaritans, 6but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (ESV)
Also, another transtlation of Matthew 10:5-6 worded alittle differently...
5These twelve Jesus sent out, instructing them, "Go nowhere among the Gentiles and enter no town of the Samaritans, 6but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (ESV)
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Lotta Luv,
john b
john b
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_SoaringEagle
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"Go not into the way of the Gentiles" (Matt. 10:5)
This speaks of Jesus' only of one of the 1st missions he specifically had for His twelve disciples. When He said to the twelve "go not into the way of the Gentiles," it was only a temporary, not permanent prohibition. Plus, from this mission they (disciples) would be getting some experience in, that would prepare them to do what Jesus would later command, that being to "to be His witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth (Acts 1:8 )." and eventually "go into all the world (which includes all the Gentiles) to preach the gospel to every creature (Mark 16:15)."
"I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt. 15:24),
This is merely stating that Christ's personal ministry was to be the glory of his people Israel. But We must remember that Jesus Himself also said He came to give His life a ransom for many, (Matt. 20:28 ) not just the house of Israel. Let's not forget that the plan of God was to send Jesus, and Jesus would eventually send the 11 disciples to go and make disciples of all nations (which includes all the Gentiles), teaching them to observe everything He had commanded them. So Jesus did, in fact, eventually give the command to go among the Gentiles too. That's not even mentioning that He also gave a prophesy, saying that before the end come, "this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout all the world, as a testimony of all nations." (Matt. 24:14),
"...for salvation is of the Jews" (John 4:22)
This actually has nothing to do with Jesus' command to evangelize. So there is no need to include this in. No tension here.
So, in conclusion, there is no need to conclude that Paul disobeyed Jesus' command or that He countermanded Jesus' order, unless one wants to display their ignorance and get embarrased. He (Paul) was actually obeying it (Jesus command). For Jesus Himself said Paul was a "chosen vessel unto for Him, to bear His name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel" (Acts 10:15) Here is a similar situation. Mr. Wise, a school teacher tells his students not to study for chapter two one month, then proceeds to the next chapter after the task at hand is completed. The next month a student, studies for chapter two, and a parent, wanting to be a critic, tells everyone that this student is countermanding Mr. Wises order. People who really know what's going on laugh hysterically.
This speaks of Jesus' only of one of the 1st missions he specifically had for His twelve disciples. When He said to the twelve "go not into the way of the Gentiles," it was only a temporary, not permanent prohibition. Plus, from this mission they (disciples) would be getting some experience in, that would prepare them to do what Jesus would later command, that being to "to be His witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth (Acts 1:8 )." and eventually "go into all the world (which includes all the Gentiles) to preach the gospel to every creature (Mark 16:15)."
"I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt. 15:24),
This is merely stating that Christ's personal ministry was to be the glory of his people Israel. But We must remember that Jesus Himself also said He came to give His life a ransom for many, (Matt. 20:28 ) not just the house of Israel. Let's not forget that the plan of God was to send Jesus, and Jesus would eventually send the 11 disciples to go and make disciples of all nations (which includes all the Gentiles), teaching them to observe everything He had commanded them. So Jesus did, in fact, eventually give the command to go among the Gentiles too. That's not even mentioning that He also gave a prophesy, saying that before the end come, "this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout all the world, as a testimony of all nations." (Matt. 24:14),
"...for salvation is of the Jews" (John 4:22)
This actually has nothing to do with Jesus' command to evangelize. So there is no need to include this in. No tension here.
So, in conclusion, there is no need to conclude that Paul disobeyed Jesus' command or that He countermanded Jesus' order, unless one wants to display their ignorance and get embarrased. He (Paul) was actually obeying it (Jesus command). For Jesus Himself said Paul was a "chosen vessel unto for Him, to bear His name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel" (Acts 10:15) Here is a similar situation. Mr. Wise, a school teacher tells his students not to study for chapter two one month, then proceeds to the next chapter after the task at hand is completed. The next month a student, studies for chapter two, and a parent, wanting to be a critic, tells everyone that this student is countermanding Mr. Wises order. People who really know what's going on laugh hysterically.
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_SoaringEagle
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Good thoughts, blind beggar. What we have so far for this one should sufficient enough to silence the idea Jesus and Paul contradict or are inconsistent with each other concering going to the gentiles. If anyone has additional thoughts they'd like to leave, please do so! On to the Next.
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(2) Jesus--"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments and shall teach men so, he shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven...." (Matt. 5:17-19) and "it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fall" (Luke 16:17) and "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: all therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do" (Matt. 23:2-3) and (John 7:19, Mark 1:44) versus Paul--"Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ" (Rom. 7:4) and "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law" (Gal. 3:13) and "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace" (Rom. 6:14) and "But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter" (Rom. 7:6) and (Rom. 10:4, 3:28, Gal. 3:23-25, 5:2-4, 18, 2:19, 21, 16, 4:10, Eph. 2:15, Col. 2:14, 16, Heb. 7:19, 1 Cor. 8:8 and many others).
Jesus said the law would stand till heaven and earth passed, while Paul said it need no longer be followed.
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(2) Jesus--"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments and shall teach men so, he shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven...." (Matt. 5:17-19) and "it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fall" (Luke 16:17) and "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: all therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do" (Matt. 23:2-3) and (John 7:19, Mark 1:44) versus Paul--"Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ" (Rom. 7:4) and "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law" (Gal. 3:13) and "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace" (Rom. 6:14) and "But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter" (Rom. 7:6) and (Rom. 10:4, 3:28, Gal. 3:23-25, 5:2-4, 18, 2:19, 21, 16, 4:10, Eph. 2:15, Col. 2:14, 16, Heb. 7:19, 1 Cor. 8:8 and many others).
Jesus said the law would stand till heaven and earth passed, while Paul said it need no longer be followed.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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