Infidel guy on way of the master radio

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_Derek
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Post by _Derek » Tue Jul 04, 2006 10:50 pm

Welcome Asimov!!

Derek
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Derek

Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
Psalm 20:7

_atheist
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Post by _atheist » Sun Jul 09, 2006 10:18 pm

Hey gals and guys,
I registered on your forum after listening to your pastor's interview with Reggie, "The Infidel Guy". Now, as many of you noted Reggie is not an intellectual heavyweight and I don't think he can adequatly explain the atheist viewpoint. However, he does often "speak from the gut" and that's an interesting approach to promoting atheism that most atheists are not familiar with. If you'd like a more intellectual slant on atheism from a show host you should listen to "The Atheist Experience" with Matt Dillahunty. Matt is an ex-Evangelical and can lay out the fallacies of the Christian doctrine remarkably well.

Now, most of you (all of you) are Christ believers you probably wonder what I'm doing here writing to you. Well, I'm not trying to incite flamewars but rather explain my worldview here as atheism is frequently equated with amorality especially in America. I think this is deeply unfair as most atheists are very ethical, caring, loving people.

First let me tell you that I used to be a Christian but my belief in the supernatural vanished as I learned more and more about the natural world. To put it bluntly there is no evidence for a god or gods or anything supernatural such as fairies, leprechauns, unicorns or other mythical beings. The Bible which is the Christian book of beliefs is no more based on evidence than Homer's Odyssey.

Now, there are arguments that you hear in popular media against atheism in the form "There is a creation so there must have been a creator". Well, not really. The same way you can argue that the Universe can just "be". If you introduce the Creator into the picture you have the problem of explaining how the Creator got there ie. who created the Creator. Now, you may say, "the Creator is the Uncaused Cause". But you could say the same of the Universe. You could say that the Universe is the Uncaused Cause. Arguing that matter and life are the proof for a god is a logical fallacy known as "explaining the Unknown in terms of the Unknown". Basically it leads nowhere because you end up multiplying the unknowns which never leads to an answer.

Another argument I hear against atheism is that "life is too complicated to have arose by chance". That's just not true. We can replicate many steps of life formation in the petri dish but not all of them. However, science has not closed the book on early life formation yet. Trying to attribute to god what men cannot accomplish yet is another fallacy that we atheists refer to as "god in the gaps". It's basically how people tend to immidately explain unknown phenomena by invoking "God". It is not sensible to do so because science keeps unraveling the secrets of nature and this room for supernatural explanations keeps shrinking. We atheists call it "god's shrinking living room". In medieval times people believed that thunder bolts were divine punishment but now that we understand electricity we know better than that. Nobody tries to attribute a lightning strike that burns a barn to a divine intervention. We know better than that. Think about this.

Finally, the big question of morals/ethics. Contrary to what you have been told, atheists are moral, caring and compassionate. We watch in horror how the world's events unravel as religious extremists on both sides (Bush and Osama) are steering the world towads a disaster. That's why we want to connect with you Christians to stop the evil which is not Islam or Christianity but extremism in general.

You ask, how does an atheist determine what's good or bad? Well, as an atheist I believe this life is the only life I have and when I die I will not ever be resurected. Therefore I value my and other people's life as the most precious thing there is. I don't believe in a soul that lives after physical death. Therefore I want to save my and other people's life as this is the most important thing we share. Atheists are very pro-life (not in the sense of being anti-abortion) but in the sense of trying to preserve life in general. Regarding abortion, there is no consensus among atheists. Some think abortions are a necessary evil, others (such as myself) are not accepting of abortions at all. Anyway, I digressed and would like to get back to the topic of morals.

What bothers us atheists is that we're painted as people who would murder, steal and rape if allowed to do so. That is blatantly false. Imagine for a minute that you don't believe in the Christian faith either. Would you immidiately go out and start committing crimes? Of course not! It's in our genes, it's in our fabric to be good to other people. Our brains are wired this way. Anway, for those who actually would go and kill and rape and steal without faith, I say, "just keep on believing" please, we don't need more crazies running around :-D

Well, I hope I explained to you my viewpoint. I am not trying to "unconvert" you. Each of you will make your own life choices. I made mine and I'm comfortable with them. I hope you choose what make sense to you. Just remember in this time of division, try to understand "the other side" no matter how hard it may seem to you.

Finally, I hope you're not offended that I don't capitalize the word "god". It's not out of disrespect but rather that my references are also applicable to Yahwe, Buddha, Allah, Vishnu or Zeus.
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_TK
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Post by _TK » Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:31 am

hello atheist-- you say you arent trying to "uncovert" anybody and your tone certainly suggests that no arguments a christian could make could possibly "convert" you, so whats the point of discussing anything? if we argue A, you'll rebut with argument B, which we will rebut with argument C, ad infinitem. it sounds as if you have considered the arguments for God's existence and found them lacking. i guess my question becomes what evidence, if any, would you be willing to consider? even if you received a "personal visitation" from God, an angel etc you likely would discount it as an unprovable event that could be explained by alternate means (a dream, a delusion, a piece of undone potato, etc). to be fair, however, i cannot think of any evidence that would convince me there is NOT a God, at least i cannot imagine such.

i dont believe that most Christians believe that atheists are horrible people, but rather tragically misguided. if christians are misguided, at least it is not tragically so, i.e. if WE are wrong, no harm no foul. if YOU are wrong, then that, my friend is a tragedy.

TK
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"Were not our hearts burning within us? (Lk 24:32)

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_Allyn
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Post by _Allyn » Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:59 am

I don't mind an honest debate, but in this case it will be like doing a battle with an unarmed man. Atheists have absolutely no documentation proving God does not exist and we have tons proving He does. Atheists lack life examples of God in their life while Christians can expound forever on how God has touched them and revealed Himself to us. Atheist despise our prrof while they wish they had some.


Just my opinion though of course.

Now to "atheist", welcome.
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_kaufmannphillips
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Post by _kaufmannphillips » Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:51 am

Hello, TK,

Perhaps everybody will pardon my interjecting here on a point.
i dont believe that most Christians believe that atheists are horrible people, but rather tragically misguided. if christians are misguided, at least it is not tragically so, i.e. if WE are wrong, no harm no foul. if YOU are wrong, then that, my friend is a tragedy.
This is a common type of argument by Christians, but it is flawed. If Christians are misguided, although one could debate the significance of "foul"ness in a Godless economy, one could not deny under any circumstances that there has been harm. Given that this is an atheist-themed thread, I will give a short list in that vein:

1) Citizens who have committed no essentially objectionable behaviors (e.g., homosexuals, scientists) will have been subjected to public humiliation and emotional distress;

2) Family units that pragmatically should have been dissolved and/or reformulated according to non-Christian principles (e.g., divorce & remarriages, polyamorous) will have been stifled, and the attendant benefits to individuals and children lost;

3) Monies that could have been used for feeding the poor and housing the homeless will have been squandered on worship activities;

4) Countless millions of hours will have been wasted in theological speculation and indoctrination, which could have been applied to practical inventiveness and education; and most importantly,

5) Weary Jews will have been needlessly subjected to Christmas carols 24/7 for two months out of every year :wink: .


[This list, of course, has omitted the usual gaggle of Crusades, witch-trials, and Jew-baiting that are often thrown in the face of Christians, since many people on this forum might deny a fair connection with such events.]

It must be admitted that choices have real consequences, and if there is no God, it does not follow that there is no harm. The people who must endure unpleasantness (or worse!) will not agree that without God their sufferings are meaningless.

Shalom,
Emmet

P.S.: I edited this once to enlarge a line of tiny font.
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:33 pm

I just listened to the show and my impression is that both Steve and Reggie did very good jobs articulating their views. Reggie's main points were two things, the first is if God knows everything why test Adam at all if you know the results ,if you know what Adam will do why go through the whole process, why allow Satan in the mix. Those are valid questions and maybe it's not for Adam and Eve per se but to show something about God and mankind and sin to the future people of God. The principles of the Garden of Eden are really what's important not even the literalness of that story.
The other point of Reggie was if God is real then where is he? Why are people suffering etc etc and that argument is common and it's like what Paul said "they look for signs" and i think there's two answers. The first is that we should'nt be judging God and the second is that if eternal life is real then the sufferings in this temporal life although difficult are insignificant in the eternal picture.
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_Micah
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Post by _Micah » Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:49 pm

Atheist,

Welcome. Glad to have you aboard. I just wanted to comment on a couple of your points:
Now, there are arguments that you hear in popular media against atheism in the form "There is a creation so there must have been a creator". Well, not really. The same way you can argue that the Universe can just "be". If you introduce the Creator into the picture you have the problem of explaining how the Creator got there ie. who created the Creator. Now, you may say, "the Creator is the Uncaused Cause". But you could say the same of the Universe. You could say that the Universe is the Uncaused Cause. Arguing that matter and life are the proof for a god is a logical fallacy known as "explaining the Unknown in terms of the Unknown". Basically it leads nowhere because you end up multiplying the unknowns which never leads to an answer.
The only issue I have with this line of logic is that you are trying to explain the supernatural through naturalistic means. You only assume that God has a beginning because everything we see around us has a beginning. The supernatural isn’t confined to the naturalistic process. So, if we take your naturalistic process of “matter cannot be created or destroyed”, where did the first piece of matter come from?
What bothers us atheists is that we're painted as people who would murder, steal and rape if allowed to do so. That is blatantly false. Imagine for a minute that you don't believe in the Christian faith either. Would you immidiately go out and start committing crimes? Of course not! It's in our genes, it's in our fabric to be good to other people. Our brains are wired this way. Anway, for those who actually would go and kill and rape and steal without faith, I say, "just keep on believing" please, we don't need more crazies running around.
Where do you think this concept of “good” came from? If it is not instilled by a higher being than how did that come to be genetically instilled in us? If you look at the rest of nature, the animals appear to kill without remorse, why should we feel any different? If someone was trapped in a burning building, why would I risk my life to save them? Wouldn’t that be against one’s survival of the fittest instinct?
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Luke 16:17 - It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.

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Post by _TK » Mon Jul 10, 2006 1:51 pm

KaufmanP- i understand where you are coming from, but my point was intended to be on a much more personal level. if i am wrong about my christian beliefs and Atheist is right, on a personal level i suppose i will die and that will be the end of it. the same is not true for Atheist if he is wrong and I am right. but i grant you that much a of civilization's carryings on throughout the millenia are religion based.
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"Were not our hearts burning within us? (Lk 24:32)

_kaufmannphillips
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Post by _kaufmannphillips » Mon Jul 10, 2006 1:59 pm

Hello, TK,

Thank you for your prompt response!

I understand your point if you are thinking in terms of an afterlife.

On a personal level, there would still be cost to your present life if you were wrong. But I suppose everything in our lives has a cost. Hopefully, we choose the right cost.

Shalom,
Emmet
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Post by _TK » Mon Jul 10, 2006 5:06 pm

Amen to that! (see Luke 14:28, et seq).

TK
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