Can I refrain from eating at t? Then it is not a libertarian free action.Derek wrote:Asimov,
God simply knows the final outcome of our freewill choices.
Whatever is going to happen, is going to happen. He simply knows in advance.
This does not take away the fact that what happens is a result of our freewill choices.
That God has always know you would eat pizza at t, does not change the fact that you ate at t of your own free will. You always had the "power" to not eat there, it is just that God knew in advance that you would not exercise said "power".
Was humanity set up for failure in the Garden?
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Reason:
Yes. You could. It is still the case, however, that God knew that you would refrain from eating there. Again, that would not mean that you did not have free choice in the matter.Asimov wrote:Can I refrain from eating at t? Then it is not a libertarian free action.Derek wrote:Asimov,
God simply knows the final outcome of our freewill choices.
Whatever is going to happen, is going to happen. He simply knows in advance.
This does not take away the fact that what happens is a result of our freewill choices.
That God has always know you would eat pizza at t, does not change the fact that you ate at t of your own free will. You always had the "power" to not eat there, it is just that God knew in advance that you would not exercise said "power".
You could write me back and say "but could I change my mind all the sudden and still go there after all?" or something. We could go around all day like that I suppose.
It doesn't matter. You are going to make a choice to eat or not eat there. You still made the choice, it just so happens that God knows the outcome.
Your choice, whatever it may be, will have an outcome. God knows that outcome. In no way does that mean He determined what would happen or anything like that. Knowing the outcome of a free will choice does not change that it was, in fact, a free will choice.
It's like the fate of the lost. Hell. God knows who will end up there. In no way does that mean they have no choice in the matter. In fact it is a choice that they made that got them there. He knows that they will reject Him and end up there. It is not His knowledge of their fate that put them in hell, it is the fact that that by their own choice rejected God.
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Reason:
Derek
Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
Psalm 20:7
Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
Psalm 20:7
i believe what derek says is correct-- that God's omniscience and our free will are NOT mutually exclusive.
what is frustrating for many (and me as well) is the inability to EXPLAIN how this can be, other than by simply stating that "just because God knows what we will do does not mean we do not choose freely to do it."
i suspect the answer has to do with time, dimensions, or maybe something we are unable to presently consider due to the limitations of our finite minds. but our inablility to explain this dilemma to the satisfaction of all critics doesn't make the premise untrue, i.e. that our free will is no less free because God knows what we will choose. it simply means that we cant explaing God. Is this a surprise?
TK
what is frustrating for many (and me as well) is the inability to EXPLAIN how this can be, other than by simply stating that "just because God knows what we will do does not mean we do not choose freely to do it."
i suspect the answer has to do with time, dimensions, or maybe something we are unable to presently consider due to the limitations of our finite minds. but our inablility to explain this dilemma to the satisfaction of all critics doesn't make the premise untrue, i.e. that our free will is no less free because God knows what we will choose. it simply means that we cant explaing God. Is this a surprise?
TK
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Reason:
"Were not our hearts burning within us? (Lk 24:32)
Of course it does. An action (mental or physical) is free if and only if the agent performing that action could have done otherwise. God knowing that I would refrain from eating there just means that I'm not making choice x(eat pizza) and making choice y(not eat pizza). You then get to the same problem that I could not refrain from y at point t and instead eat the pizza.Yes. You could. It is still the case, however, that God knew that you would refrain from eating there. Again, that would not mean that you did not have free choice in the matter.
It's determined already that I would do x or y. Not being able to refrain from doing x or y is the lack of a libertarian free action.
Only one thing is determined in that instance and that is the specific choice that is being made. That choice is already determined and therefore by definition not a free action.You could write me back and say "but could I change my mind all the sudden and still go there after all?" or something. We could go around all day like that I suppose.
Then it's not a free action.It doesn't matter. You are going to make a choice to eat or not eat there. You still made the choice, it just so happens that God knows the outcome.
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_SoaringEagle
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So basically if God knows the outcome, then we do not have free will??? This seems far-fetched. Like I keep asking you, if we currently know all of the choices we made in the past, and our knowledge of it doesn't determine it (do you agree), then God's knowledge of the future doesn't determine it. Let's say that God observes the choices of man. By you saying the future determines choices, you are personifying the future into someone or something that's able to be active in interfering with the choices we make. This is absurb, and is not a straw-man. This is the consequences of your view. The future is not able to determine the ever present choices of man. Again, your premise and conclusion is flawed.
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Reason:
Non sequiter. Could you syllogistically prove that this paragraph is sound and coherent? I don't see how it follows.SoaringEagle wrote:So basically if God knows the outcome, then we do not have free will??? This seems far-fetched. Like I keep asking you, if we currently know all of the choices we made in the past, and our knowledge of it doesn't determine it (do you agree), then God's knowledge of the future doesn't determine it.
I didn't say the future determines choices. I'm saying predetermined choices in the future are not libertarian free actions because we cannot refrain from making those choices. What happens, happens, whether we know of it or not in this instance.Let's say that God observes the choices of man. By you saying the future determines choices, you are personifying the future into someone or something that's able to be active in interfering with the choices we make.
Making a choice != Free Will.
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Reason:
Asimov is correct in his arguments, and my fellow Christians are mistaken.
Here is another thread which deals with this topic. You may wish to read the whole thing. It's quite interesting. On the second page, I have expressed an argument similar to Asimov's reasoning. I think I have stated it as succinctly and logically as possible. If you read my argument and are still not convinced, I won't attempt to convince you. As it is written, "Convince a man against his will; he's of the same opinion still."
http://www.wvss.com/forumc/viewtopic.ph ... sc&start=0
Here is another thread which deals with this topic. You may wish to read the whole thing. It's quite interesting. On the second page, I have expressed an argument similar to Asimov's reasoning. I think I have stated it as succinctly and logically as possible. If you read my argument and are still not convinced, I won't attempt to convince you. As it is written, "Convince a man against his will; he's of the same opinion still."
http://www.wvss.com/forumc/viewtopic.ph ... sc&start=0
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Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Interesting perspectives, Paidion...I hope to read some more from you.Paidion wrote:Asimov is correct in his arguments, and my fellow Christians are mistaken.
Here is another thread which deals with this topic. You may wish to read the whole thing. It's quite interesting. On the second page, I have expressed an argument similar to Asimov's reasoning. I think I have stated it as succinctly and logically as possible. If you read my argument and are still not convinced, I won't attempt to convince you. As it is written, "Convince a man against his will; he's of the same opinion still."
http://www.wvss.com/forumc/viewtopic.ph ... sc&start=0
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_SoaringEagle
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If God knows our free will choices, do we still have free will?
I've always been puzzled by the notion held by some people that if God knows what we are going to choose in the future, then we don't really have free will. They say that if God knows we are going to make a certain "free will" choice, then when it is time for us to make that choice, because God knows what we are going to choose, we are not really free to make a different choice and God's foreknowledge means we cannot have free will. Quite honestly, I do not see this as being a problem at all. Let's work with the idea that we are free will creatures and that God knows all things, even our future choices. Furthermore, let's define free will in the Open Theist sense as the ability to make equal choices between options, regardless of a person's sinful nature.1 Given these conditions, are God's omniscience and our free will incompatible as the Open Theists claim?
Analogy
By analogy, knowing what will happen does not mean that we are preventing or causing that thing to happen. The sun will rise tomorrow. I am not causing it to rise nor am I preventing it from rising by knowing that it will happen. Likewise, if I put a bowl of ice-cream and a bowl of cauliflower in front of my child, I know for a fact which one is chosen, the ice cream. My knowing it ahead of time does not restrict my child from making a free choice when the time comes. My child is free to make a choice and knowing the choice has no effect upon her when she makes it.
Logic
Logically, God knowing what we are going to do does not mean that we can't do something else. It means that God simply knows what we have chosen to do ahead of time. Our freedom is not restricted by God's foreknowledge; our freedom is simply realized ahead of time by God. In this, our natural ability to make another choice has not been removed anymore than my choice of what to write inside the parenthesis (hello) was removed by God who knew I would put the word "hello" in the parentheses before the universe was made. Before typing the word "hello," I pondered which word to write. My pondering was my doing and the choice was mine. How then was I somehow restricted in freedom when choosing what to write if God knew what I was going to do? No matter what choice we freely make can be known by God and His knowing it doesn't mean we aren't making a free choice.
Time
Part of the issue here is the nature of time. If the future exists for God even as the present does, then God is consistently in all places at all times and is not restricted by time. This would mean that time was not a part of His nature to which God is subject, and that God is not a linear entity; that is, it would mean that God is not restricted to operating in our time realm and is not restricted to the present only. If God is not restricted to existence in the present, our present, then the future is known by God because God indwells the future as well as the present (and the past). This would mean that our future choices, as free as they are, are simply known by God. Again, our ability to choose is not altered or lessened by God existing in the future an knowing what we freely choose. It just means that God can see what we will freely choose -- because that is what we freely choose -- and know what it is.
Part of the problem in Open Theism is that by restricting God to the present only, His existence is defined in such a way as to imply that time is part of His nature and that He is restricted to it. The question is whether or not this is logical as well as biblical.
Scripture
Scripturally, God inhabits eternity. Psalm 90:2 says, "Before the mountains were born, or Thou didst give birth to the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, Thou art God." But this verses, an others, do not declare that God lives inside or outside of time. Rather, the Bible tells us that God is eternal. We can, however, note that the Bible teaches that God has no beginning or end. This is not definitive, but we may be able to conclude that since time is that non-spatial, continuous succession of events from the past, through the present, and into the future, and that since the word "beginning" denotes a relationship to and in time, and since God has no beginning, that time is not applicable to God's nature. In other words, God has no beginning and since "beginning" deals with an event in time, God is outside of time.
Nevertheless, the scriptures are not definitive on this issue and we can only conclude what it does say; namely, that God is eternal, without beginning, without end, and that He can accurately and precisely predict what will happen.
"As for you, O king, while on your bed your thoughts turned to what would take place in the future; and He who reveals mysteries has made known to you what will take place," (Dan. 2:29).
So, in relation to our free will and God's predictive ability, there is no biblical reason to assert that God's foreknowledge negates our freedom.
Conclusion
There is no logical reason to claim that if God knows what choices we are going to make that it means we are not free. It still means that the free choices we will make are free -- they are just known ahead of time by God. If we choose something different, then that choice will have been eternally known by God. Furthermore, this knowledge by God does not alter our nature in that it does not change what we are, free to make choices. God's knowledge is necessarily complete and exhaustive because that is His nature to know all things. In fact, since He has eternally known what all our free choices will be, He has ordained history to come to the conclusion that He wishes including and incorporating our choices into His divine plan: “For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur," (Acts 4:27-28). Why because God always knows all things: "..God is greater than our heart, and knows all things," (1 John 3:20).
By Matt Slick
Please note, that the sentence in italics is something is an act by God, and I don't see scripture saying that God acts this way with every person. Matt Slick is of this persuasion. Even with these people in Acts 4:27-28, there is no reason to believe that God in any way determined what they would make. A logical understanding is that their hearts were hardened by their own decisions, and their mind was made up, so God used these people as by incorporating their choices into His divine plan.
I've always been puzzled by the notion held by some people that if God knows what we are going to choose in the future, then we don't really have free will. They say that if God knows we are going to make a certain "free will" choice, then when it is time for us to make that choice, because God knows what we are going to choose, we are not really free to make a different choice and God's foreknowledge means we cannot have free will. Quite honestly, I do not see this as being a problem at all. Let's work with the idea that we are free will creatures and that God knows all things, even our future choices. Furthermore, let's define free will in the Open Theist sense as the ability to make equal choices between options, regardless of a person's sinful nature.1 Given these conditions, are God's omniscience and our free will incompatible as the Open Theists claim?
Analogy
By analogy, knowing what will happen does not mean that we are preventing or causing that thing to happen. The sun will rise tomorrow. I am not causing it to rise nor am I preventing it from rising by knowing that it will happen. Likewise, if I put a bowl of ice-cream and a bowl of cauliflower in front of my child, I know for a fact which one is chosen, the ice cream. My knowing it ahead of time does not restrict my child from making a free choice when the time comes. My child is free to make a choice and knowing the choice has no effect upon her when she makes it.
Logic
Logically, God knowing what we are going to do does not mean that we can't do something else. It means that God simply knows what we have chosen to do ahead of time. Our freedom is not restricted by God's foreknowledge; our freedom is simply realized ahead of time by God. In this, our natural ability to make another choice has not been removed anymore than my choice of what to write inside the parenthesis (hello) was removed by God who knew I would put the word "hello" in the parentheses before the universe was made. Before typing the word "hello," I pondered which word to write. My pondering was my doing and the choice was mine. How then was I somehow restricted in freedom when choosing what to write if God knew what I was going to do? No matter what choice we freely make can be known by God and His knowing it doesn't mean we aren't making a free choice.
Time
Part of the issue here is the nature of time. If the future exists for God even as the present does, then God is consistently in all places at all times and is not restricted by time. This would mean that time was not a part of His nature to which God is subject, and that God is not a linear entity; that is, it would mean that God is not restricted to operating in our time realm and is not restricted to the present only. If God is not restricted to existence in the present, our present, then the future is known by God because God indwells the future as well as the present (and the past). This would mean that our future choices, as free as they are, are simply known by God. Again, our ability to choose is not altered or lessened by God existing in the future an knowing what we freely choose. It just means that God can see what we will freely choose -- because that is what we freely choose -- and know what it is.
Part of the problem in Open Theism is that by restricting God to the present only, His existence is defined in such a way as to imply that time is part of His nature and that He is restricted to it. The question is whether or not this is logical as well as biblical.
Scripture
Scripturally, God inhabits eternity. Psalm 90:2 says, "Before the mountains were born, or Thou didst give birth to the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, Thou art God." But this verses, an others, do not declare that God lives inside or outside of time. Rather, the Bible tells us that God is eternal. We can, however, note that the Bible teaches that God has no beginning or end. This is not definitive, but we may be able to conclude that since time is that non-spatial, continuous succession of events from the past, through the present, and into the future, and that since the word "beginning" denotes a relationship to and in time, and since God has no beginning, that time is not applicable to God's nature. In other words, God has no beginning and since "beginning" deals with an event in time, God is outside of time.
Nevertheless, the scriptures are not definitive on this issue and we can only conclude what it does say; namely, that God is eternal, without beginning, without end, and that He can accurately and precisely predict what will happen.
"As for you, O king, while on your bed your thoughts turned to what would take place in the future; and He who reveals mysteries has made known to you what will take place," (Dan. 2:29).
So, in relation to our free will and God's predictive ability, there is no biblical reason to assert that God's foreknowledge negates our freedom.
Conclusion
There is no logical reason to claim that if God knows what choices we are going to make that it means we are not free. It still means that the free choices we will make are free -- they are just known ahead of time by God. If we choose something different, then that choice will have been eternally known by God. Furthermore, this knowledge by God does not alter our nature in that it does not change what we are, free to make choices. God's knowledge is necessarily complete and exhaustive because that is His nature to know all things. In fact, since He has eternally known what all our free choices will be, He has ordained history to come to the conclusion that He wishes including and incorporating our choices into His divine plan: “For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur," (Acts 4:27-28). Why because God always knows all things: "..God is greater than our heart, and knows all things," (1 John 3:20).
By Matt Slick
Please note, that the sentence in italics is something is an act by God, and I don't see scripture saying that God acts this way with every person. Matt Slick is of this persuasion. Even with these people in Acts 4:27-28, there is no reason to believe that God in any way determined what they would make. A logical understanding is that their hearts were hardened by their own decisions, and their mind was made up, so God used these people as by incorporating their choices into His divine plan.
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Reason:
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_SoaringEagle
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- Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2005 10:40 pm
- Location: Louisville, KY
I wrote:
So basically if God knows the outcome, then we do not have free will??? This seems far-fetched. Like I keep asking you, if we currently know all of the choices we made in the past, and our knowledge of it doesn't determine it (do you agree), then God's knowledge of the future doesn't determine it.
In Response To This You (Asimov) Wrote:
Non sequiter. Could you syllogistically prove that this paragraph is sound and coherent? I don't see how it follows.
Non sequiter huh? Not so! Imagine there is no God...
... oops, you are already living in that world created by the imaginations of men!
Anyways, suppose there is no God that knows the future choices of man. Think of all the choices you made yesterday if you could. Does your memory and knowledge of those choices determine those choices? Absolutely not right? So if that is true, suppose there is a God who knows all the future choices of SoaringEagle. His knowledge of them doesn't determine them. How would it?
So basically if God knows the outcome, then we do not have free will??? This seems far-fetched. Like I keep asking you, if we currently know all of the choices we made in the past, and our knowledge of it doesn't determine it (do you agree), then God's knowledge of the future doesn't determine it.
In Response To This You (Asimov) Wrote:
Non sequiter. Could you syllogistically prove that this paragraph is sound and coherent? I don't see how it follows.
Non sequiter huh? Not so! Imagine there is no God...
... oops, you are already living in that world created by the imaginations of men!
Anyways, suppose there is no God that knows the future choices of man. Think of all the choices you made yesterday if you could. Does your memory and knowledge of those choices determine those choices? Absolutely not right? So if that is true, suppose there is a God who knows all the future choices of SoaringEagle. His knowledge of them doesn't determine them. How would it?
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Reason:
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