Jackal,
First you say:
I would have to say that... it was not likely that Bethlehem existed.
Then you turn around and say:
The archaeological evidence, or lack thereof, indicates that this early Bethlehem was abandoned around or shortly after the exile, and did not exist during the early Roman period.
Saying it is not likely for bethlehem to have existed during such time leaves it open for the possibility to have existed. Saying it did not exist is a statement of certainty, which closes the door on the possibility for it to have existed in this time.
Please tell me how you can rightly state something that admits the possibility for this town to have existed during this time, and then conclude with certainty that it didn't?
Why no other evidence of the massacre of the babies?
-
_SoaringEagle
- Posts: 285
- Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2005 10:40 pm
- Location: Louisville, KY
SoaringEagle wrote:Jackal,
First you say:
I would have to say that... it was not likely that Bethlehem existed.
Then you turn around and say:
The archaeological evidence, or lack thereof, indicates that this early Bethlehem was abandoned around or shortly after the exile, and did not exist during the early Roman period.
Saying it is not likely for bethlehem to have existed during such time leaves it open for the possibility to have existed. Saying it did not exist is a statement of certainty, which closes the door on the possibility for it to have existed in this time.
Please tell me how you can rightly state something that admits the possibility for this town to have existed during this time, and then conclude with certainty that it didn't?
If you follow my compound sentence correctly, I said, "The archaeological evidence, or lack thereof, indicates . . . [it] did not exist." That is exactly correct -- the lack of any evidence of something is an indication that something doesn't exist. Contrary to your strawman, I did not say it didn't exist. I said the evidence indicates it didn't. It is the logical inference to be drawn from the lack of evidence. Does it prove with absolute certainty that it didn't exist? No, of course not. But on that indication, that inference, its existance was not likely.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
-
_Mort_Coyle
- Posts: 239
- Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:28 am
- Location: Seattle, WA
Not being an archaeologist, or subscribing to archaeological journals, I wouldn't know where to search for records of digs in Bethlehem.Can you cite an authority who presents archaeological evidence, pottery shards or the like, dating to the first century in bethlehem, rather than just assumes that Bethlehem existed as a small hamlet because of the lack of any evidence?
Bethlehem appears to have been continuously populated for millenia and experienced a boom in population and development immediately following the time of Jesus. I've not seen any plausible explanation for why it would have been deserted for the span of time encompassing Jesus' birth.
It is an established historical fact that, following the Bar Kochba rebellion in 135 A.D., the Roman emporer Hadrian ordered that a sacred garden dedicated to Adonis be built in Bethlehem. It was built on the site of a grotto that was, at that time, considered to be the birthplace of Christ (according to Justin Martyr in about 150 A.D.). Hadrian's intention was to profane and eradicate all places of worship belonging to the Jewish people (at this point the Romans made no distinction between Judaism and Christianity). Jerome, in 396 A.D., wrote: "From Hadrian's time until the reign of Constantine, for about 180 years, the Gentiles used to worship an image of Jupiter set up in the place of the Resurrection and on the rock of the Cross a marble statue of Venus. For the authors of the persecution supposed that by polluting the Holy Places with idols they would do away with our faith in the Resurrection and the Cross. Bethlehem, now ours, and the earth's most sacred spot... was overshadowed by a grove of Thammuz, which is Adonis, and in the cave where the infant Messiah once cried, the paramour of Venus was bewailed."
The obvious inference is that there must have been something significant in Bethlehem for Hadrian to have bothered intentionally desecrating it.
According to Origen (185-254 A.D.): "... even amongst those who are strangers to the faith it is known that inside that grotto he who is adored and glorified by the Christians was born ."
Following the Bar Kochba rebellion, the Jews were expelled from Bethlehem. It seems that a considerable pagan population still remained in the district to carry on a cult that had been popular among agricultural communities in the east. In about 325 A.D., the Bishop of Jerusalem, Macarius, took the opportunity, offered by the general council of the church at Nicaea, of acquainting the Emperor Constantine of the neglected condition of various "holy places" in and around Jerusalem. The Emperor ordered the construction, at the public charge, of monumental churches to commemorate the three principal events of Jesus' life. One of these was to be a church enshrining the scene of the Nativity, in Bethlehem.
As far as the claim that Bethlehem didn't exist in the 1st century, it seems to be traced back to a single source, Aviram Oshri, a senior archaeologist with the Israel Antiquities Authority. Oshri posits that the birthplace of Jesus was actually Bethlehem of Galilee. This view has been championed and proliferated by the Jesus Seminar and spread across the Internet.
Yet, Oshri himself has stated, “Following the Six-Day War in 1967, surveys showed plenty of Iron Age pottery, but with the single exception of a publication that mentions Herodian sherds found in a corner of the church, there is surprisingly no archaeological evidence that ties Bethlehem in Judaea to the period in which Jesus would have been born.”, so I guess there are your pottery shards.
Oshri is a credible source, but his thesis about Bethlehem of Galilee is just that - a thesis. It's also quite recent (I think he published in 2004?). It will be interesting to see how it holds up in light of future discoveries and how the apparent contradictions with the historical record of Bethlehem of Judea are reconciled. At this point, it seems premature to put too much faith in Oshri's hypotheses. Especially considering how many times in the past archaeological discoveries have verified Biblical accounts.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
.It is an established historical fact that, following the Bar Kochba rebellion in 135 A.D., the Roman emporer Hadrian ordered that a sacred garden dedicated to Adonis be built in Bethlehem. It was built on the site of a grotto that was, at that time, considered to be the birthplace of Christ
I believe the translation of that report was that Hadrian desecrated the traditional site with a grove, which is a stand of trees or small forest, sacred to Adonis. I would imagine planting a small forest would be difficult in the middle of a town, if there were a town there.
.The obvious inference is that there must have been something significant in Bethlehem for Hadrian to have bothered intentionally desecrating it.
Yes, it was a grotto, something of a cave or cavern, which tradition held as the sight of the manager. A cave doesn't infer or imply a town.
.The Emperor ordered the construction, at the public charge, of monumental churches to commemorate the three principal events of Jesus' life. One of these was to be a church enshrining the scene of the Nativity, in Bethlehem.
And this account is prefaced with the statement that Constantine first cut down Hadrian's grove, which at this point had been growing ca. 200years. Still no mention of a town hiding in the trees. It is after the construction of this chapel that the archaeological record resumes, leading to the town known today.
.Yet, Oshri himself has stated, “Following the Six-Day War in 1967, surveys showed plenty of Iron Age pottery, but with the single exception of a publication that mentions Herodian sherds found in a corner of the church, there is surprisingly no archaeological evidence that ties Bethlehem in Judaea to the period in which Jesus would have been born.”, so I guess there are your pottery shards.
Where? Oshri also reported, which you omitted, that the whereabouts of these alleged shards are unknown and no archaeologist has reported to have seen or examined them.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
-
_SoaringEagle
- Posts: 285
- Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2005 10:40 pm
- Location: Louisville, KY
So the lack of any evidence of something is an indication that something doesn't exist? Perhaps in some cases, yes it can be. In this situation, there may have been evidence for Bethlehem’s existence during this time; evidence that has not survived.
How does this sound:
Bethlehem is mentioned in the gospels.
If there was such a town in existence during this time there would be evidence (outside the bible) for it.
There is no evidence (outside the bible) for this town during this time.
Therefore, this town did not exist during this time.
There are problems with this line of thinking. First, it assumes that because we have no evidence today other than the gospels, there was never any evidence for it. It must be understood that writings in those days did not always survive. About half of what the Roman historian Tacitus wrote has not survived. Just a fragment of Thallus’ work on Mediterranean history has survived. Suetonius was aware of the writings of Asclepiades of Mendes, yet, his writings have not survived. Livy, the great Roman historian wrote books too, yet just his early books and excerpts of the rest have survived. Nicholas of Damascus, who happened to be Herod the Great’s secretary, wrote a Universal History in 144 books. None of them survived.
Several Early Christian writings have suffered a similar fate. Papias, wrote five books that are quoted by other early church fathers. Yet none of them have survived. Only a few citations and slight summary information remain. The Apostle Paul is said to have written a letter to the Corinthian church which has not survived. The five books of Recollections, written by Hegesippus in the second century, have also been lost. Only fragments have survived, by Eusebius for the most part. A Christian leader named Quadratus, wrote a defense of the Christian faith to the Roman Emperor Hadrian around 125. If Eusebius had not quoted a paragraph and mentioned his work, we would be totally unaware of its existence. Say Eusebius’ writings too suffered the same fate. We would have no evidence of Quadratus’ apologetic writing. Would this mean that the lack of evidence in this case is an indication that Quadratus’ material never existed? Surely not. This shows that the absence of evidence isn’t a conclusive determining factor of a person, place or thing’s alleged existence. This goes for the existence of Nazareth and Bethlehem during the time of Jesus’ birth, the existence of a historical mortal named Jesus of the Gospels and His acts, and the testimony of the 500 witnesses who Jesus appeared to as the Resurrected Lord.
How does this sound:
Bethlehem is mentioned in the gospels.
If there was such a town in existence during this time there would be evidence (outside the bible) for it.
There is no evidence (outside the bible) for this town during this time.
Therefore, this town did not exist during this time.
There are problems with this line of thinking. First, it assumes that because we have no evidence today other than the gospels, there was never any evidence for it. It must be understood that writings in those days did not always survive. About half of what the Roman historian Tacitus wrote has not survived. Just a fragment of Thallus’ work on Mediterranean history has survived. Suetonius was aware of the writings of Asclepiades of Mendes, yet, his writings have not survived. Livy, the great Roman historian wrote books too, yet just his early books and excerpts of the rest have survived. Nicholas of Damascus, who happened to be Herod the Great’s secretary, wrote a Universal History in 144 books. None of them survived.
Several Early Christian writings have suffered a similar fate. Papias, wrote five books that are quoted by other early church fathers. Yet none of them have survived. Only a few citations and slight summary information remain. The Apostle Paul is said to have written a letter to the Corinthian church which has not survived. The five books of Recollections, written by Hegesippus in the second century, have also been lost. Only fragments have survived, by Eusebius for the most part. A Christian leader named Quadratus, wrote a defense of the Christian faith to the Roman Emperor Hadrian around 125. If Eusebius had not quoted a paragraph and mentioned his work, we would be totally unaware of its existence. Say Eusebius’ writings too suffered the same fate. We would have no evidence of Quadratus’ apologetic writing. Would this mean that the lack of evidence in this case is an indication that Quadratus’ material never existed? Surely not. This shows that the absence of evidence isn’t a conclusive determining factor of a person, place or thing’s alleged existence. This goes for the existence of Nazareth and Bethlehem during the time of Jesus’ birth, the existence of a historical mortal named Jesus of the Gospels and His acts, and the testimony of the 500 witnesses who Jesus appeared to as the Resurrected Lord.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
-
_SoaringEagle
- Posts: 285
- Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2005 10:40 pm
- Location: Louisville, KY
Jackal,
The things of the bible aren't as fictional as you'd like to think. You mentioned of Archeology. Well, see the following:
Archeology
By Douglas Beaumont
www.dougbeaumont.org
The archeological evidence for the Bible's authenticity is overwhelmingly positive. Unlike the writings of Muhammad, Joseph Smith, or other so-called prophets, with every turn of the archeologist's spade there is more proof that the Bible is historically accurate.There has never been an archeological find that has proved the Bible false. Not to be construed as an argument from lack of evidence to the contrary, we see that when a dig has been performed in a biblical area we find exactly what the Bible says we should find. There are cities, cultures, governments, names of families, geography, history - all showing just how accurate the descriptions were when the disciples and others recorded what they had seen. In fact, those who have tried to use archeology to disprove the Bible's trustworthiness have often run into the exact opposite.
Sir William Ramsey, regarded as one of the greatest archeologists in history, set out to disprove the Bible by doing research in Asia Minor to show that the book of Acts was not written by Luke, but by someone in the second century as he had been taught. He studied the topography, antiquities, and society of that culture and what did he find? In his own words: "Luke's history is unsurpassed in respect of its trustworthiness...this author should be placed along with the very greatest of historians." What is truly amazing is that once the Bible was used as a guide to find other insights into the life of this community, much more was learned through minute details that never would have been found without it! The full story of this progression of knowledge is astounding to read. (see W.M. Ramsay, St. Paul the Traveler and the Roman Citizen).
Another example is found in the book of Daniel. Daniel speaks of a king named Belshazzar of Babylon. Because of this reference, the book was dismissed as fictional due to the fact that there was no mention of a king with that name in existence other than Daniel's account. It was later discovered that the reigning king at that time, Nabonidus, had appointed Belshazzar as his co-regent while at war away from Babylon. Daniel was accurate, and the historicity of the Bible was proven once again.
Until 1961 the name of Pontius Pilate (the man who eventually sentenced Jesus to death) was unheard of outside of the biblical record. However, in 1961 two Italian archeologists discovered a record of his service as Prefect of Judea in the region of Caesarea...the Roman capital of Palestine!
Another involves the city of Ninevah from the book of Jonah and others. Also assumed to be fiction, it was later dug up by the man who thought it to be nonexistent! Time and again we see that the facts of archeology do nothing but add to the Bible's authenticity, while it is only the opinions of liberal critics that serve to cause any doubt.
"I tell you," he replied, "if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out."
Luke 19:40
Some more archeological evidence for Scripture's accuracy:
* Hittite civilization (Genesis 15:20) discovered in 1906
* Quirinius Governor of Syria (Luke 2:1-3) confirmed as a double duty by coin
* Correct titles of government praetor, proconsul, first man, politarchs (Luke's writings)
* John alone mentions The Pool of Bethesda (John 5:1-15), it was found as described
* The walls of Jericho (Joshua 6) with the exception of part of the Northern wall - Rahab's house??? (Heb. 11:30-31) - found in 1950. They were burned and fallen from the inside out.
* Census taking in first century (Gospels) method of family counting used is accurate
* Pilate the Governor's (John 19) existence confirmed by inscription found in 1961
* Jesus' direction of travel (Mark 7:31) probable route through mountains makes sense
* Daniel accurately recorded Belshazzar's position (5:16) as co-regent
* Nazareth's existence (John 1:46) confirmed by family lists and tombs in vicinity 1962
* Method of crucifixion confirmed in 1968
* The method and fact of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 19) verified
* Lysanius the Tetrarch (Luke 3:1) confirmed as correct name for that time period
* The Pool of Siloam (John 9:7) found as described
* Jacob's Well (John 4:12) found as described
* Cities of Lycaonia included Iconium (Acts 14:6) confirmed as correct
* Erastus the city treasurer (Romans 16:23) inscription found in Corinth in 1929
* Ecclessia meeting in theater (Acts 19:23) found
* The proper title "meris" used of Philippi of Macedonia
* Jesus' probable home unearthed in Capernaum (Mark 1:29-34)
* Millstones (Luke 17:2) unearthed in Capernaum
* First century Galilean boat found to hold crew of 13 1986
* John (3:23) correctly identifies John the Baptist as being in Aeno
* John (2:1) distinguishes the two Canas, and the two Bethanys (1:28; 11:18)
* John (4:5-6) specifies the city of Sychar in Samaria where Jacob's well is found.
* Evidence has also been found for the Tower of Babel and the confusion of languages
* The method and destruction of the city of Tyre is 100% accurate (Ezekial 26)
* Christ was tried by Pilate in the "Gabbatha" (or pavement) found (John 19:13)
* Personal and place names in the Patriarchal accounts are genuine "Canaan" "tehom" (Ebla)
* In 1977 an inscription mentioning Dan was found near the high place (1 Kings 12:28-29)
* The Mesha Inscription found in Jordan mentions the tribe of Gad (Joshua 13:24-28)
* The Babylonians recorded the fall of the "city of JUDAH" to Nebuchadnezzar in 597 BC
* The palace at Jericho where Eglon, king of Moab, was assassinated by Ehud .
* The east gate of Shechem where the forces of Abimelech approached the city found
* The Temple of Baal/El-Berith in Shechem,
* The pool of Gibeon where the forces of David and Ishbosheth fought found
* The royal palace at Samaria where the kings of Israel lived
* The Pool of Samaria where King Ahab's chariot was washed after his death found
* The water tunnel beneath Jerusalem dug by King Hezekiah during the Assyrian siege found
* The royal palace in Babylon where King Belshazzar held the feast
* The royal palace in Susa where Esther was queen of the Persian king Xerxes found
* The royal gate at Susa where Mordecai, Esther's cousin, sat found
* The Square in front of the royal gate at Susa where Mordecai met with Halthach found
* The foundation of the synagogue at Capernaum where Jesus cured a man with an unclean spirit and delivered the sermon on the bread of life
* The tribunal at Corinth where Paul was tried found
* The theater at Ephesus where the riot of silversmiths occurred found
* Herod's palace at Caesarea where Paul was kept under guard found
Graves of Caiaphas the High Priest (John 18:13), Caesar Augustus (Luke 2:1-7), Cyrus the Great (Isaiah 45), Darius-I the Great (Ezra 6) known
* The cave of the Patriarchs (Sarah, Abraham, Isaac, Rebekah, Leah and Jacob) known
* Grave of David and Solomon known
* Grave of Uzziah (an inscription was found on the Mount of Olives in 1931 which reads, "Here were brought the bones of Uzziah, King of Judah - do not open."...evidently because of leprosy)
The things of the bible aren't as fictional as you'd like to think. You mentioned of Archeology. Well, see the following:
Archeology
By Douglas Beaumont
www.dougbeaumont.org
The archeological evidence for the Bible's authenticity is overwhelmingly positive. Unlike the writings of Muhammad, Joseph Smith, or other so-called prophets, with every turn of the archeologist's spade there is more proof that the Bible is historically accurate.There has never been an archeological find that has proved the Bible false. Not to be construed as an argument from lack of evidence to the contrary, we see that when a dig has been performed in a biblical area we find exactly what the Bible says we should find. There are cities, cultures, governments, names of families, geography, history - all showing just how accurate the descriptions were when the disciples and others recorded what they had seen. In fact, those who have tried to use archeology to disprove the Bible's trustworthiness have often run into the exact opposite.
Sir William Ramsey, regarded as one of the greatest archeologists in history, set out to disprove the Bible by doing research in Asia Minor to show that the book of Acts was not written by Luke, but by someone in the second century as he had been taught. He studied the topography, antiquities, and society of that culture and what did he find? In his own words: "Luke's history is unsurpassed in respect of its trustworthiness...this author should be placed along with the very greatest of historians." What is truly amazing is that once the Bible was used as a guide to find other insights into the life of this community, much more was learned through minute details that never would have been found without it! The full story of this progression of knowledge is astounding to read. (see W.M. Ramsay, St. Paul the Traveler and the Roman Citizen).
Another example is found in the book of Daniel. Daniel speaks of a king named Belshazzar of Babylon. Because of this reference, the book was dismissed as fictional due to the fact that there was no mention of a king with that name in existence other than Daniel's account. It was later discovered that the reigning king at that time, Nabonidus, had appointed Belshazzar as his co-regent while at war away from Babylon. Daniel was accurate, and the historicity of the Bible was proven once again.
Until 1961 the name of Pontius Pilate (the man who eventually sentenced Jesus to death) was unheard of outside of the biblical record. However, in 1961 two Italian archeologists discovered a record of his service as Prefect of Judea in the region of Caesarea...the Roman capital of Palestine!
Another involves the city of Ninevah from the book of Jonah and others. Also assumed to be fiction, it was later dug up by the man who thought it to be nonexistent! Time and again we see that the facts of archeology do nothing but add to the Bible's authenticity, while it is only the opinions of liberal critics that serve to cause any doubt.
"I tell you," he replied, "if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out."
Luke 19:40
Some more archeological evidence for Scripture's accuracy:
* Hittite civilization (Genesis 15:20) discovered in 1906
* Quirinius Governor of Syria (Luke 2:1-3) confirmed as a double duty by coin
* Correct titles of government praetor, proconsul, first man, politarchs (Luke's writings)
* John alone mentions The Pool of Bethesda (John 5:1-15), it was found as described
* The walls of Jericho (Joshua 6) with the exception of part of the Northern wall - Rahab's house??? (Heb. 11:30-31) - found in 1950. They were burned and fallen from the inside out.
* Census taking in first century (Gospels) method of family counting used is accurate
* Pilate the Governor's (John 19) existence confirmed by inscription found in 1961
* Jesus' direction of travel (Mark 7:31) probable route through mountains makes sense
* Daniel accurately recorded Belshazzar's position (5:16) as co-regent
* Nazareth's existence (John 1:46) confirmed by family lists and tombs in vicinity 1962
* Method of crucifixion confirmed in 1968
* The method and fact of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 19) verified
* Lysanius the Tetrarch (Luke 3:1) confirmed as correct name for that time period
* The Pool of Siloam (John 9:7) found as described
* Jacob's Well (John 4:12) found as described
* Cities of Lycaonia included Iconium (Acts 14:6) confirmed as correct
* Erastus the city treasurer (Romans 16:23) inscription found in Corinth in 1929
* Ecclessia meeting in theater (Acts 19:23) found
* The proper title "meris" used of Philippi of Macedonia
* Jesus' probable home unearthed in Capernaum (Mark 1:29-34)
* Millstones (Luke 17:2) unearthed in Capernaum
* First century Galilean boat found to hold crew of 13 1986
* John (3:23) correctly identifies John the Baptist as being in Aeno
* John (2:1) distinguishes the two Canas, and the two Bethanys (1:28; 11:18)
* John (4:5-6) specifies the city of Sychar in Samaria where Jacob's well is found.
* Evidence has also been found for the Tower of Babel and the confusion of languages
* The method and destruction of the city of Tyre is 100% accurate (Ezekial 26)
* Christ was tried by Pilate in the "Gabbatha" (or pavement) found (John 19:13)
* Personal and place names in the Patriarchal accounts are genuine "Canaan" "tehom" (Ebla)
* In 1977 an inscription mentioning Dan was found near the high place (1 Kings 12:28-29)
* The Mesha Inscription found in Jordan mentions the tribe of Gad (Joshua 13:24-28)
* The Babylonians recorded the fall of the "city of JUDAH" to Nebuchadnezzar in 597 BC
* The palace at Jericho where Eglon, king of Moab, was assassinated by Ehud .
* The east gate of Shechem where the forces of Abimelech approached the city found
* The Temple of Baal/El-Berith in Shechem,
* The pool of Gibeon where the forces of David and Ishbosheth fought found
* The royal palace at Samaria where the kings of Israel lived
* The Pool of Samaria where King Ahab's chariot was washed after his death found
* The water tunnel beneath Jerusalem dug by King Hezekiah during the Assyrian siege found
* The royal palace in Babylon where King Belshazzar held the feast
* The royal palace in Susa where Esther was queen of the Persian king Xerxes found
* The royal gate at Susa where Mordecai, Esther's cousin, sat found
* The Square in front of the royal gate at Susa where Mordecai met with Halthach found
* The foundation of the synagogue at Capernaum where Jesus cured a man with an unclean spirit and delivered the sermon on the bread of life
* The tribunal at Corinth where Paul was tried found
* The theater at Ephesus where the riot of silversmiths occurred found
* Herod's palace at Caesarea where Paul was kept under guard found
Graves of Caiaphas the High Priest (John 18:13), Caesar Augustus (Luke 2:1-7), Cyrus the Great (Isaiah 45), Darius-I the Great (Ezra 6) known
* The cave of the Patriarchs (Sarah, Abraham, Isaac, Rebekah, Leah and Jacob) known
* Grave of David and Solomon known
* Grave of Uzziah (an inscription was found on the Mount of Olives in 1931 which reads, "Here were brought the bones of Uzziah, King of Judah - do not open."...evidently because of leprosy)
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason: