An evil spirit from God?
-
_SoaringEagle
- Posts: 285
- Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2005 10:40 pm
- Location: Louisville, KY
An evil spirit from God?
1 Samuel 16:14-23 (KJV) But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee. Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well. And Saul said unto his servants, Provide me now a man that can play well, and bring him to me. Then answered one of the servants, and said, Behold, I have seen a son of Jesse the Bethlehemite, that is cunning in playing, and a mighty valiant man, and a man of war, and prudent in matters, and a comely person, and the LORD is with him. Wherefore Saul sent messengers unto Jesse, and said, Send me David thy son, which is with the sheep. And Jesse took an ass laden with bread, and a bottle of wine, and a kid, and sent them by David his son unto Saul. And David came to Saul, and stood before him: and he loved him greatly; and he became his armourbearer. And Saul sent to Jesse, saying, Let David, I pray thee, stand before me; for he hath found favour in my sight. And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Man- i just heard Steve G discuss this in one of his lectures but i cant remember which one-- i believe it was in one of the talks on the life of christ but not sure which exact one. i think he also talked about it in the spiritual warfare series. unfortunately i cant remeber exactly what he said (sorry Steve) so i am not going to guess. i agree that it is a problematic passage, however.
TK
TK
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
"Were not our hearts burning within us? (Lk 24:32)
-
_SoaringEagle
- Posts: 285
- Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2005 10:40 pm
- Location: Louisville, KY
A Christian named Fortigurn has this to say about this passage:
God removed His Holy Spirit from Saul, and instead sent him a 'spirit of ill will' or 'distressing spirit', as some translations render this:
1) What is the Spirit of Yahweh here? It is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is referred to in the Old Testament as the Spirit of Yahweh.
2) Where does the evil spirit come from? Does it come from satan? Does it do his will? No. It comes from God, and it does His will.
3) If the Spirit of Yahweh in the first part of the verse is supernatural, then why isn't the evil spirit in the second part of the verse supernatural? The answer to this is that the Spirit of Yahweh is demonstrably used in the Old Testament to refer to the Holy Spirit (this is verifiable), whereas the only previous use of the Hebrew phrase here translated 'evil spirit' is demonstrably a feeling of ill will between two parties. This is verifiable.
Since the Hebrew phrase translated 'evil spirit' in the KJV has only been used once before this passage, and since it did not there refer to a supernatural being doing the will of satan (have a look for yourself), then there is no reason to understand the 'evil spirit' here in any other way than the meaning in Judges 9.
4) What do the servants of Saul think? Do they believe he is being tormented by a minion of satan?
No. They believe that this is an affliction sent by God. Where is satan in all this?
5) Do the servants of Saul insist on an exorcism, or resort to a priest to have the 'evil spirit' cast out?
No. They recommend that they find a skilled musician, insisting that when the musician plays, Saul will be well. They make no suggestion that anything supernatural is occurring.
Now do you recommend that the best response to an attack by one of satan's minions is to play some music, in order to send it away? If not - why not?
6) Does the suggestion of Saul's servants work?
Yes. Whenever David plays, Saul is 'refreshed and well', and the 'evil spirit' goes away. There is no suggestion that anything supernatural is occurring. We are told very bluntly that music causes evil spirits to leave, though we know that this 'evil spirit' returned to Saul at times.
7) Does the record here indicate a supernatural minion of satan, or a troubled spirit sent by God as an affliction? The evidence, I believe, points to the latter. This interpretation is also verifiable. Show me someone 'possessed' with an evil spirit, and let's have some good music and see what happens.
The real problem for people who believe that these 'evil spirits' referred to in these two places of the Old Testament are supernatural beings, is that they cannot escape the fact that Scripture insists that supernatural means are not required to send them away. Just some good music is all that is necessary.
And the reason why these passages remain such a stumblingblock to thise who believe that they refer to supernatural beings, is that these 'evil spirits' are described in the Scriptural record as:
What was that 'evil spirit' sent by God to Saul?
I believe it was a psychological affliction. Let's see what an earlier 'evil spirit' sent by God is:
What was that 'evil spirit' sent by God to Saul?
I believe it was a psychological affliction. Let's see what an earlier 'evil spirit' sent by God is:
1) If these 'evil spirits' are supernatural beings who are the buddies of satan and do his evil will, then why does God always send them?
2) How do you send an supernatural evil being 'between' two groups of people? Do they have to share?
3) What do other translations say?
God removed His Holy Spirit from Saul, and instead sent him a 'spirit of ill will' or 'distressing spirit', as some translations render this:
1 Samuel 16:
14But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
1) What is the Spirit of Yahweh here? It is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is referred to in the Old Testament as the Spirit of Yahweh.
2) Where does the evil spirit come from? Does it come from satan? Does it do his will? No. It comes from God, and it does His will.
3) If the Spirit of Yahweh in the first part of the verse is supernatural, then why isn't the evil spirit in the second part of the verse supernatural? The answer to this is that the Spirit of Yahweh is demonstrably used in the Old Testament to refer to the Holy Spirit (this is verifiable), whereas the only previous use of the Hebrew phrase here translated 'evil spirit' is demonstrably a feeling of ill will between two parties. This is verifiable.
Since the Hebrew phrase translated 'evil spirit' in the KJV has only been used once before this passage, and since it did not there refer to a supernatural being doing the will of satan (have a look for yourself), then there is no reason to understand the 'evil spirit' here in any other way than the meaning in Judges 9.
4) What do the servants of Saul think? Do they believe he is being tormented by a minion of satan?
5And Saul’s servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.
No. They believe that this is an affliction sent by God. Where is satan in all this?
5) Do the servants of Saul insist on an exorcism, or resort to a priest to have the 'evil spirit' cast out?
16Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well.
No. They recommend that they find a skilled musician, insisting that when the musician plays, Saul will be well. They make no suggestion that anything supernatural is occurring.
Now do you recommend that the best response to an attack by one of satan's minions is to play some music, in order to send it away? If not - why not?
6) Does the suggestion of Saul's servants work?
im.23And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from h
Yes. Whenever David plays, Saul is 'refreshed and well', and the 'evil spirit' goes away. There is no suggestion that anything supernatural is occurring. We are told very bluntly that music causes evil spirits to leave, though we know that this 'evil spirit' returned to Saul at times.
7) Does the record here indicate a supernatural minion of satan, or a troubled spirit sent by God as an affliction? The evidence, I believe, points to the latter. This interpretation is also verifiable. Show me someone 'possessed' with an evil spirit, and let's have some good music and see what happens.
The real problem for people who believe that these 'evil spirits' referred to in these two places of the Old Testament are supernatural beings, is that they cannot escape the fact that Scripture insists that supernatural means are not required to send them away. Just some good music is all that is necessary.
And the reason why these passages remain such a stumblingblock to thise who believe that they refer to supernatural beings, is that these 'evil spirits' are described in the Scriptural record as:
What was that 'evil spirit' sent by God to Saul?
I believe it was a psychological affliction. Let's see what an earlier 'evil spirit' sent by God is:
What was that 'evil spirit' sent by God to Saul?
I believe it was a psychological affliction. Let's see what an earlier 'evil spirit' sent by God is:
Judges 9:
22When Abimelech had reigned three years over Israel,
23Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:
1) If these 'evil spirits' are supernatural beings who are the buddies of satan and do his evil will, then why does God always send them?
2) How do you send an supernatural evil being 'between' two groups of people? Do they have to share?
3) What do other translations say?
TLB:
22-23Three years later God stirred up trouble between King Abimelech and the citizens of Shechem, and they revolted.
NAB:
22 When Abimelech had ruled Israel for three years,
23 God put bad feelings between Abimelech and the citizens of Shechem, who rebelled against Abimelech.
NKJV:
22 After Abimelech had reigned over Israel three years,
23 God sent a spirit of ill will between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech,
NLT:
22 After Abimelech had ruled over Israel for three years,
23 God stirred up trouble between Abimelech and the people of Shechem, and they revolted.
CEV:
22 Abimelech had been a military commander of Israel for three years,
23-24 when God decided to punish him and the leaders of Shechem for killing Gideon’s seventy sons.
So God turned the leaders of Shechem against Abimelech.
TEV:
22 Abimelech ruled Israel for three years.
23Then God made Abimelech and the men of Shechem hostile to each other, and they rebelled against him.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
-
_kaufmannphillips
- Posts: 227
- Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:25 pm
- Location: SW Washington
reply
Hello,
For what it is worth, the Hebrew term rendered "evil" in this passage may be understood as carrying a sense of being bad or harmful, without a moral character necessarily being implied. Compare II Samuel 24:16, Jeremiah 24:3.
Shalom,
Emmet
For what it is worth, the Hebrew term rendered "evil" in this passage may be understood as carrying a sense of being bad or harmful, without a moral character necessarily being implied. Compare II Samuel 24:16, Jeremiah 24:3.
Shalom,
Emmet
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason: