Christians don't believe in God!?

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_Asimov
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Post by _Asimov » Sun Oct 08, 2006 12:34 am

SoaringEagle wrote: Maybe I am just missing it, but I don't see how this affects the reliability of oral tradition.
In order to spread the word and gain followers, exaggeration and flair added to the telling would increase the number of followers.
Kind of like me going to church tomorrow and telling a friend a certain sentence, and having them immediately tell their neighbor, and they tell their neighbor, and theirs, and theirs, and as it gets around and back to me it will be different from what I originally said as aspects of the sentence will be changed or omitted, right? :wink:
Yes...the telephone game! :D
People of what century :?:
Of any century...we haven't exactly changed in behaviour that much SoaringEagle. We still have the same brain capacity as before, the same reasoning abilities.

Unless you're claiming that people of 2000 years ago were smarter than we are now.
Yes, but I get the impression that you think that all of the things mentioned in the gospels and the book of Acts are fictional or made up.
No. I believe they are mythological.
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_JC
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Post by _JC » Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:36 am

Why are all the Atheists on this board anonymous? J/K

Seriously, Asimov, I have a question that perhaps you can answer. Why should we believe the claim that you are only interested in facts?

Human nature is such that people have underlying motives for their actions and beliefs. This would include the skeptic, no? You make the claim that you only care about objective facts but why should anyone believe you? How do I know you're not influenced by Atheistic propaganda? Why should I believe that your rejection of Christ is anything more than emotional and experiential?

Again, you made the claim. Please prove it using objective facts.
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_Asimov
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Post by _Asimov » Tue Oct 10, 2006 5:36 pm

JC wrote: Seriously, Asimov, I have a question that perhaps you can answer. Why should we believe the claim that you are only interested in facts?
I'm not only interested in facts. I was asked a question as to what types of evidences would convince me and I replied that factual evidence would convince me.
Human nature is such that people have underlying motives for their actions and beliefs. This would include the skeptic, no? You make the claim that you only care about objective facts but why should anyone believe you? How do I know you're not influenced by Atheistic propaganda?


You don't know that I'm not influenced by atheistic propaganda, and I may very well be. How do I know you're not influenced by Christian propaganda? You probably are.

What does that really matter though, in the interest of personal growth? If you asking me questions causes you're mind to expand and take in more information that is useful to you and makes you a better person and if me asking you guys questions does the same, I think it doesn't matter as long as there is mutual benefit.

I didn't say I only care about objective facts. I care about facts in certain aspects, particularly in the one of claimed events that are amazing. Looking at it from a historical perspective, sure, someone rising from the dead is amazing. Looking at it from a mythological perspective, nothing new.

See the difference?
Why should I believe that your rejection of Christ is anything more than emotional and experiential?
It could be, but so far my challenges to the claims have not been emotional ones, so what reason do you have to believe that my justification is generated from emotionalism?

If I have presented an emotional appeal, then please point it out to me.
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Post by _MLH » Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:35 pm

why are you interested in this bible forum Asimov?
I am suprised you are still posting........

The just shall live by faith and receiving Christ as Lord is not
something felt through the senses, but through faith, a belief in
a spiritual kingdom, we serve an invisible God in HIS invisible kingdom.
You cant find it through your intellect. Perhaps you arent even looking
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_Homer
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Post by _Homer » Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:31 pm

Asimov,

You refer to the death and resurrection of Jesus as a myth. How do you explain the martyrdom of several people who had first hand knowledge of the event? They knew whether it was true or not. Why would they be willing to die, especially seperated from each other by time and geography, when all they had to do was to recant?

Face it, you do not believe because of the extraordinary nature of the resurrection and/or your desire not to believe it, not because of the evidence, which is more plentiful by far than any other ancient event.

The bible reveals the only religion based on facts.
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_Asimov
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Post by _Asimov » Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:13 am

Homer wrote:How do you explain the martyrdom of several people who had first hand knowledge of the event? They knew whether it was true or not. Why would they be willing to die, especially seperated from each other by time and geography, when all they had to do was to recant?
Which people? When were they martyred? What documentation records this? Is it contemporary? Are there corroborating documentation to support this?

Like I said...facts.

How do you know if they knew it was true or not? All they need to do is believe that is was true.
Face it, you do not believe because of the extraordinary nature of the resurrection and/or your desire not to believe it
Face it, you do not believe because of the extraordinary nature of Joseph Smith's revelation and/or your desire not to believe it.
Not because of the evidence, which is more plentiful by far than any other ancient event.
Naked assertion. You have nothing. No contemporary accounts, no corroborative historical writings.
The bible reveals the only religion based on facts.
Really, well then it should be easy for you to qualify your statements.
No, Homer, it really doesn't.
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_JC
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Post by _JC » Wed Oct 11, 2006 9:14 am

Asimov, everything a person believes is based on some authority. This gets tricky when dealing with historical evidence because all we have is archeology and early testimony. It doesn't matter what the historical event was, we only know about it because of those two things. We know from Suetonius, Tacitus, Pliney, and Josephus (all pagan sources) that there were persecuted Christians in the first century. This doesn't take into consideration all of the "biased" Christian sources.

So what questions arise from this information? The two biggest questions that jump out at me are.... who were these people and why were they persecuted? It must have been a large group if the Roman Caesars took notice of them (according to pagan sources). They were also willing to die instead of flee, which means they held strong beliefs about non-resistance.

If you, Asimov, told me you saw a pink elephant in your room last night I'd say you're either lying or delusional. But if I perceive you to be a rational person (which I do, based on your writings) and you were also willing to be tortured and beheaded for this claim... I'd take you more seriously. In fact, I'd be persuaded that you had indeed witnessed something. Now, if you also brought me a few hundred other people, who were all willing to undergo tortue and death, who also saw the pink elephant I'd have a lot of trouble writing off this experience as a mass conspiracy.... especially if you stood to gain nothing by it.

Why would you care if I believe your testimony about the pink elephant unless you were convinced of it yourself? To take this a step further, let's say the elephant had instructed you to give up all your possessions, live in poverty, love those who hate you, and serve others the rest of your life? Very few people (if any) would consider this a good reason to lie. Did you see the videos of those Iraqi Muslims sawing off the heads of contract workers? Would they have endured the same treatment to advance a lie? I think it's very naive to think so.

So we come back to authority. The apostle Paul, from his writings, seemed to be a very rational man. Even liberal scholars date his epistles to the mid-first century. So we now have early testimony of a man claiming he met a resurrected savior that a bunch of other Jews had seen as well. Paul travels around proclaiming the message and gets thrown in jail and beheaded by Nero for his troubles. Did Paul do these things because he wanted to advance some new mythology? My knowledge of human nature says his testimony holds more weight than, say, a chair-holder at Cambridge, 2000 years later, who stands only to gain by his assertions, claiming Paul was spreading a myth.

Thank you for your time. ;-)
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Post by _Asimov » Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:54 pm

JC wrote:Asimov, everything a person believes is based on some authority. This gets tricky when dealing with historical evidence because all we have is archeology and early testimony. It doesn't matter what the historical event was, we only know about it because of those two things. We know from Suetonius, Tacitus, Pliney, and Josephus (all pagan sources) that there were persecuted Christians in the first century. This doesn't take into consideration all of the "biased" Christian sources.
Unfortunately, Seutonius, Tacitus, Pliny and Josephus are not contemporary sources and had only hearsay knowledge about any events regarding Jesus.

The passages in Josephus regarding Jesus are thought to be interpolations because those passages don't exist and the authenticity of it is disputed.

Tacitus' information is a little suspect, especially since Seutonius (another Nero-hater) never mentioned Christians in his passages and he did write about the great fire. Both Tacitus and Seutonius had a huge hostility to Nero and used a number of popular legends at the time of Nero to discredit him as a ruler. Not to mention no source exists before the 15th century that mentions that passage about Nero burning Christians.

And I hope you're not suggesting that Pliny the Younger is referring to Christians who worshipped Jesus of Nazareth.

So what questions arise from this information? The two biggest questions that jump out at me are.... who were these people and why were they persecuted? It must have been a large group if the Roman Caesars took notice of them (according to pagan sources). They were also willing to die instead of flee, which means they held strong beliefs about non-resistance.


Widespread national persecution of Christians didn't start until 300CE. There weren't that many Christians at the time of Nero.

Now, if you also brought me a few hundred other people, who were all willing to undergo tortue and death, who also saw the pink elephant I'd have a lot of trouble writing off this experience as a mass conspiracy.... especially if you stood to gain nothing by it.


What if I told you there was a spaceship hiding in the tail of a comet? Would you believe me? What if I killed myself so that my spirit would go up into that spaceship? You know what I'm talking about.

The willingness to die for ones beliefs only has to rest on the strength of that faith and is not indicative of the truth of the matter. Mass people who are willing to die for their beliefs are the same thing, and doesn't point to the truth of the matter. Martyrdom would be a huge thing for Christians as a testament to their faith, and people will believe anything they want to because they want it to be true or they fear it to be true.

To take this a step further, let's say the elephant had instructed you to give up all your possessions, live in poverty, love those who hate you, and serve others the rest of your life? Very few people (if any) would consider this a good reason to lie. Did you see the videos of those Iraqi Muslims sawing off the heads of contract workers? Would they have endured the same treatment to advance a lie? I think it's very naive to think so.


Who says they were lying?

So we now have early testimony of a man claiming he met a resurrected savior that a bunch of other Jews had seen as well. Paul travels around proclaiming the message and gets thrown in jail and beheaded by Nero for his troubles. Did Paul do these things because he wanted to advance some new mythology? My knowledge of human nature says his testimony holds more weight than, say, a chair-holder at Cambridge, 2000 years later, who stands only to gain by his assertions, claiming Paul was spreading a myth.


Paul never met Jesus, he wasn't around when Jesus was doing his ministry and he wasn't around when Jesus was crucified. Paul did those things because he believed them to be true. Again, all it takes is belief.
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Post by _Paidion » Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:33 pm

And I hope you're not suggesting that Pliny the Younger is referring to Christians who worshipped Jesus of Nazareth.
Why do you hope that? There is no rational doubt that Christians who worshipped Jesus of Nazareth are exactly the Christians to which Pliny the Younger was referring. Who else do you think this "Christ" (Messiah) would have been, whom Pliny required suspected Christians to curse? And what of those who recanted, but who reported their "crime" to have been only to recite a hymn antiphonally to Christ as a God and to take an oath not to steal, commit adultery, etc.? Pliny also reports having "found out the truth" by torturing two maidservants who were called "deaconesses." These were Christians with whom Pliny was dealing. He wrote to Trajan to ask whether his procedure was appropriate. From the beginning, Christians worshipped Jesus of Narareth, the Christ (Messiah). What reason do you have for thinking the Christians with whom Pliny was dealing, were any different?
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Post by _Homer » Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:17 pm

Asimov,

You said:
people will believe anything they want to because they want it to be true
This applies equally to Asimov.

And you said:
Paul never met Jesus,
You who pretend to base everything on facts, prove this assertion with facts. You selectively believe what you want just as you accuse Christians of doing.
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