Dawkins said:
"If God were answering the prayers of amputees to regenerate their lost limbs, we would be seeing amputated legs growing back every day. It would appear, to an unbiased observer, that God is singling out amputees and purposefully ignoring them."
We credit God for curing cancer and other ailments. Why does He seemingly never answer the prayer for healing for amputees or paraplegics? Dawkins raises an interesting question.
Comments?
Quote - Atheist Richard Dawkins
Quote - Atheist Richard Dawkins
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Reason:
A Berean
As I see it, God sometimes, but rarely intervenes in the natural course of events that take place on this earth.
To do so frequently would upset the stability of the world as He created it.
For instance, suppose He always ensured that Christians would have a soft landing if they fell over a cliff. Then it wouldn't be clear when gravity would operate and when it wouldn't. Furthermore, if it became a "law of nature", some Christians might deliberately jump over a cliff in order to save time going where they wished to go.
I know that many people attribute their recovery from cancer as God's doing. I certainly wouldn't try to convince them otherwise. Yet I suspect that God is credited for having done more healing of people than He has actually directly done.
In some cases, Jesus said, "Your faith has made you well." It may be that in some cancer cases, the faith of the victims operated in such a way that their bodies created a substance that destroyed the cancer. There seems to be a very close relation between the "body" and "mind", which, in my opinion, are two aspects of a single entity --- the self (or soul, if you prefer).
To do so frequently would upset the stability of the world as He created it.
For instance, suppose He always ensured that Christians would have a soft landing if they fell over a cliff. Then it wouldn't be clear when gravity would operate and when it wouldn't. Furthermore, if it became a "law of nature", some Christians might deliberately jump over a cliff in order to save time going where they wished to go.
I know that many people attribute their recovery from cancer as God's doing. I certainly wouldn't try to convince them otherwise. Yet I suspect that God is credited for having done more healing of people than He has actually directly done.
In some cases, Jesus said, "Your faith has made you well." It may be that in some cancer cases, the faith of the victims operated in such a way that their bodies created a substance that destroyed the cancer. There seems to be a very close relation between the "body" and "mind", which, in my opinion, are two aspects of a single entity --- the self (or soul, if you prefer).
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Reason:
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Paidion makes a good point but I'd put it another way. A person is not their body. A person is a soul that lives inside a body while on Earth. Paul and Peter both call the body a tent and Jesus said not to fear the one who can destroy the body but not the soul. This is evidence that a person is a soul that temporarily lives inside a body. At the resurrection I think the body and soul will become one, but that body will have an entirely different physics.
I say all this to make the following point: We are not to concern ourselves so much with the tent we're dwelling in, but rather, the soul that lives inside. Jesus chose to heal a ton of people while on Earth and often said, "Your faith has made you well" or "Because of your faith, it will be done to you." So faith is a necessary ingredient to being healed, but it's not the only ingredient. It must also be God's will to heal the person. Paul prayed three times to be healed of an infirmity but was denied.
Therefore, if one seeks a healing then they must first have faith and not doubt that God could heal them (James 1:6) and must also pray according to the will of God (Mark 14:36). Jesus did not have his cup of suffering removed, but God's will was indeed done, so his prayer was granted in that sense.
Now, to address the question of amputees, Paidion's reply make a lot of sense. God is, from my own personal understanding of him, a very subtle being. If a person's limb grew back in a crowded room then people would be impressed, but this doesn't mean they would turn their lives over to Christ. Jesus did miracles just as imperssive, in public no less, and still people saught to kill him.
I say all this to make the following point: We are not to concern ourselves so much with the tent we're dwelling in, but rather, the soul that lives inside. Jesus chose to heal a ton of people while on Earth and often said, "Your faith has made you well" or "Because of your faith, it will be done to you." So faith is a necessary ingredient to being healed, but it's not the only ingredient. It must also be God's will to heal the person. Paul prayed three times to be healed of an infirmity but was denied.
Therefore, if one seeks a healing then they must first have faith and not doubt that God could heal them (James 1:6) and must also pray according to the will of God (Mark 14:36). Jesus did not have his cup of suffering removed, but God's will was indeed done, so his prayer was granted in that sense.
Now, to address the question of amputees, Paidion's reply make a lot of sense. God is, from my own personal understanding of him, a very subtle being. If a person's limb grew back in a crowded room then people would be impressed, but this doesn't mean they would turn their lives over to Christ. Jesus did miracles just as imperssive, in public no less, and still people saught to kill him.
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Reason:
Reason:
His question also probably stems from the (false) perception that the bible presents a world in which miracles are happening all the time. I don't think this is the case. They are more or less just as scarce in the bible.We credit God for curing cancer and other ailments. Why does He seemingly never answer the prayer for healing for amputees or paraplegics? Dawkins raises an interesting question.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Derek
Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
Psalm 20:7
Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
Psalm 20:7
paidion wrote:
thanks for having the courage to say this, Paidion; i think you are correct but it is quite politically incorrect in some circles to say so.
having said that, i have little doubt that miraculous healings occur, as we experienced one with my mother in law a little over a year ago. i am somewhat skeptical about healing claims(perhaps more than i should be), but this one that i experienced first hand i cannot deny, nor is there an adequate alternative explanation.
TK
I know that many people attribute their recovery from cancer as God's doing. I certainly wouldn't try to convince them otherwise. Yet I suspect that God is credited for having done more healing of people than He has actually directly done.
thanks for having the courage to say this, Paidion; i think you are correct but it is quite politically incorrect in some circles to say so.
having said that, i have little doubt that miraculous healings occur, as we experienced one with my mother in law a little over a year ago. i am somewhat skeptical about healing claims(perhaps more than i should be), but this one that i experienced first hand i cannot deny, nor is there an adequate alternative explanation.
TK
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Reason:
"Were not our hearts burning within us? (Lk 24:32)
Guys, I think it's always good to give God the honor for a healing because even if it was a naturalistic thing, he at least allowed it to happen. God could always prevent a person from being healed so in that sense, he always heals people that are healed. 
Dawkins was trying to make the point that more obvious miracles, like limbs growing back, don't happen nowadays when people are always claiming subtle miracles. His whole reason for saying this is to prove that if God was in the business of healing people, he would also heal amputees. I guess my question would be, "If he did, should we expect to know about it?" We see very little miraculous healings in the west (and the U.K. where Dawkins is from) so skepticism is rampant. Ironically enough, skepticism is the reason Jesus couldn't heal people in his hometown. Just food for thought.
Dawkins was trying to make the point that more obvious miracles, like limbs growing back, don't happen nowadays when people are always claiming subtle miracles. His whole reason for saying this is to prove that if God was in the business of healing people, he would also heal amputees. I guess my question would be, "If he did, should we expect to know about it?" We see very little miraculous healings in the west (and the U.K. where Dawkins is from) so skepticism is rampant. Ironically enough, skepticism is the reason Jesus couldn't heal people in his hometown. Just food for thought.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
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_STEVE7150
- Posts: 894
- Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:38 pm
I know that God heals like recently my mother in law who is 85 had lung cancer surgery. The doctors said at best even if the surgery was perfect she would lose 20% breathing capacity and may need an oxygen tank. We prayed Mark 11.22 every day and other healing scriptures and she truly believed and was at peace.
She's fine and walks on the treadmill every morning and swims and breaths better then before.
I think that if God physically healed limbs then he would violate his own word "without faith it's impossible to please God."
Then it would'nt take faith to believe and we could walk by sight.
She's fine and walks on the treadmill every morning and swims and breaths better then before.
I think that if God physically healed limbs then he would violate his own word "without faith it's impossible to please God."
Then it would'nt take faith to believe and we could walk by sight.
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Reason:
JC:
Justin Martyr, doubtless referring to gnostics, in his Dialogue With Trypho said:
If you have fallen in with some who are called Christians ... who say there is no resurrection, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven, do not imagine that they are Christians...
-----Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 80, second paragraph
Let's look at your first statement: "A person is not their body." Quite true. The physical body is one aspect of a person. Their mental characteristics is another aspect. Nevetheless, without a body, we do not have a human person.
Genesis 46:26 All the souls that came with Jacob into Egypt, which came out of his loins, besides Jacob’s sons’ wives, all the souls were threescore and six; AV
How was it known that 66 souls came with Jacob into Egypt? I tend to think that there had to be a body count.
Let's examine the first reference to "soul" in the Bible.
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. AV
First God created Adam's body from the earth. Then He breathed into the body the breath (or spirit) of life, and man became a living soul.
It doesn't say that God placed a soul into the body He created. It states that the body became a soul. A good translation would be:
...and man became a living being.
Have you ever heard of a dead soul? It's in the Bible in several places. Here is one of them:
Numbers 6:6 "All the days that he separates himself to the LORD he shall not go near a dead soul."
Oh, I know. The translations do not translate "nephesh" as "soul" in this verse as they do in most other verses. There is no way that "nephesh" means "body." But if we translated, "he shall not go near a dead being," there would be no problem. The NASB translates it as "dead person." That's a whole lot better. When you said, "a person is not a body" you are correct if you refer to a living person. But it seems that a "dead person" is a "dead body."
Yes, Jesus did say not to fear him who can destroy the body and do nothing else. Rather fear Him who can destroy both body and soul (self) in Gehenna.
Most of us do not believe that God annihilates those who will be in Gehenna. Another sense of "destroy" in Scripture is the destruction of the present form so that a better form comes forth. For example, there is a reference to "gold which is destroyed through fire" in 1 Peter 1:7. We know that gold is not annihilated in fire. But the original form is destroyed, and the pure metal comes forth. This is the way God "destroys" the self in Gehenna. The old self will be gone, and the new self come forth. That is, God will destroy both body and soul in Gehenna. The only way that He can do that is if those who will be in Gehenna have bodies. But just a minute. Didn't they leave their bodies behind on earth?
Yes, but these people will be raised again in the second resurrection. Then their bodies and souls will be destroyed, or perhaps to a modern ear, "refined" would be a better word choice.
I don't think any of this "is evidence that a person is a soul that temporarily lives inside a body."
You are expressing traditional Greek thought quite accurately, as well as gnostic thought which was largely derived from Greek philosophy. But we are Christians. This is not Christian belief.A person is not their body. A person is a soul that lives inside a body while on Earth.
Justin Martyr, doubtless referring to gnostics, in his Dialogue With Trypho said:
If you have fallen in with some who are called Christians ... who say there is no resurrection, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven, do not imagine that they are Christians...
-----Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 80, second paragraph
Let's look at your first statement: "A person is not their body." Quite true. The physical body is one aspect of a person. Their mental characteristics is another aspect. Nevetheless, without a body, we do not have a human person.
Genesis 46:26 All the souls that came with Jacob into Egypt, which came out of his loins, besides Jacob’s sons’ wives, all the souls were threescore and six; AV
How was it known that 66 souls came with Jacob into Egypt? I tend to think that there had to be a body count.
Let's examine the first reference to "soul" in the Bible.
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. AV
First God created Adam's body from the earth. Then He breathed into the body the breath (or spirit) of life, and man became a living soul.
It doesn't say that God placed a soul into the body He created. It states that the body became a soul. A good translation would be:
...and man became a living being.
Have you ever heard of a dead soul? It's in the Bible in several places. Here is one of them:
Numbers 6:6 "All the days that he separates himself to the LORD he shall not go near a dead soul."
Oh, I know. The translations do not translate "nephesh" as "soul" in this verse as they do in most other verses. There is no way that "nephesh" means "body." But if we translated, "he shall not go near a dead being," there would be no problem. The NASB translates it as "dead person." That's a whole lot better. When you said, "a person is not a body" you are correct if you refer to a living person. But it seems that a "dead person" is a "dead body."
It is true that they used that figure of speech. They thought of the body as a tent in which we live. That may have been a common way of speaking in that day.Paul and Peter both call the body a tent...
and Jesus said not to fear the one who can destroy the body but not the soul. This is evidence that a person is a soul that temporarily lives inside a body.
Yes, Jesus did say not to fear him who can destroy the body and do nothing else. Rather fear Him who can destroy both body and soul (self) in Gehenna.
Most of us do not believe that God annihilates those who will be in Gehenna. Another sense of "destroy" in Scripture is the destruction of the present form so that a better form comes forth. For example, there is a reference to "gold which is destroyed through fire" in 1 Peter 1:7. We know that gold is not annihilated in fire. But the original form is destroyed, and the pure metal comes forth. This is the way God "destroys" the self in Gehenna. The old self will be gone, and the new self come forth. That is, God will destroy both body and soul in Gehenna. The only way that He can do that is if those who will be in Gehenna have bodies. But just a minute. Didn't they leave their bodies behind on earth?
Yes, but these people will be raised again in the second resurrection. Then their bodies and souls will be destroyed, or perhaps to a modern ear, "refined" would be a better word choice.
I don't think any of this "is evidence that a person is a soul that temporarily lives inside a body."
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
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_STEVE7150
- Posts: 894
- Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:38 pm
I don't think any of this "is evidence that a person is a soul that temporarily lives inside a body."
It seems to me in the NT we start to see evidence of a regenerated human spirit that may not have been present in the OT.
"Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely and may your WHOLE SPIRIT, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Thes 5.23
It seems to me in the NT we start to see evidence of a regenerated human spirit that may not have been present in the OT.
"Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely and may your WHOLE SPIRIT, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Thes 5.23
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
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_livingink
- Posts: 153
- Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 7:54 pm
Dawkins quote
My husband brought this to my attention figuring I may be able to answer your question from a more direct point of view. Although I have all my limbs, my legs don't work at all and I am losing my arm strength more every day. So to the following statement, "It would appear, to an unbiased observer, that God is singling out amputees and purposefully ignoring them." I have this to say:
God did answer their prayers, not neccessarily with the answer they wanted, but if they are talking to God now wanting answers, at least he has their attention. When I lost the use of my legs, I wanted to blame God but after looking at my life from the hospital bed, I knew God was trying to get my attention. My Dad kept telling me to slow down and stop for a moment, but No, I knew better, I had too much to do. Well I had to slow down now. But as time went on, like most people, I adapted and figured a way to keep going and became even busier. (Meaning studying the Bible and improving my relationship with God was not top of my list). Needless to say God had to jerk my chain again to wake me up, this time I spent almost 4 years in and out of the hospital with respiratory problems, leaving me on a ventilator. It took this for me to say, "Alright God I give up. You take over I am not going to try any more. You want me to do something for you, then take control, I can't cope any more!"
Not immediately, but in time my life changed drastically, but for the good. I met my husband, whom you have met as livingink, and together we have developed a good life, which includes reading and studying the Bible regularly. I found myself sharing these things with others who need a boost for reasons (some more some less severe than my own life) of their own. And when work becomes more important than taking time to read the Bible every week, my arms become weaker and painful, so I have no choice. Then as I read, I feel better and glad he has my attention. Too often before I would believe I was doing what God wanted, but realistically I was saying, Ok God I agree with you, now if you will just do it my way.......
God answers our prayers in his own way that he knows will lead us to our salvation If we listen.
Dixie
God did answer their prayers, not neccessarily with the answer they wanted, but if they are talking to God now wanting answers, at least he has their attention. When I lost the use of my legs, I wanted to blame God but after looking at my life from the hospital bed, I knew God was trying to get my attention. My Dad kept telling me to slow down and stop for a moment, but No, I knew better, I had too much to do. Well I had to slow down now. But as time went on, like most people, I adapted and figured a way to keep going and became even busier. (Meaning studying the Bible and improving my relationship with God was not top of my list). Needless to say God had to jerk my chain again to wake me up, this time I spent almost 4 years in and out of the hospital with respiratory problems, leaving me on a ventilator. It took this for me to say, "Alright God I give up. You take over I am not going to try any more. You want me to do something for you, then take control, I can't cope any more!"
Not immediately, but in time my life changed drastically, but for the good. I met my husband, whom you have met as livingink, and together we have developed a good life, which includes reading and studying the Bible regularly. I found myself sharing these things with others who need a boost for reasons (some more some less severe than my own life) of their own. And when work becomes more important than taking time to read the Bible every week, my arms become weaker and painful, so I have no choice. Then as I read, I feel better and glad he has my attention. Too often before I would believe I was doing what God wanted, but realistically I was saying, Ok God I agree with you, now if you will just do it my way.......
God answers our prayers in his own way that he knows will lead us to our salvation If we listen.
Dixie
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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