OT Saints in Heaven?

[Guest]

... since His resurrection, all who die in Christ are absent from the body and present with the Lord (2 Cor 5:5).

They are or they will be? This passage is often used to suggest the "immediate passage of the soul to heaven."

Another passage used in the same way is that containing the words of our Lord, "God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." However, when we read this in its context, it is clear that our Lord was speaking to the Sadducees (who did not believe in the resurrection of the dead), about the resurrection. Notice what He stated that He was going to talk about:

Matthew 22:32,32
And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God, ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.

Robin, if we carefully read in context the passage in 2 Cor 5, that you mentioned, we will see that that also is speaking about the resurrection of the dead:

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

We shall not be found naked. We shall not be found as disembodied spirits or "souls" in heaven. Rather we shall be clothed with the resurrection body.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Sounds a bit like I Corithians 15, doesn't it? "This mortal must put on immortality."

5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

God the Father raised Jesus from the dead. He, through Jesus, will also raise us from the dead.

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

While we are at home in this present mortal body, we are absent from the Lord in our immortal resurrecion body. We would rather be absent from this present mortal body and to be present with the Lord in our permanent immortal body.

[Guest]

Paidion, I think you may have a case there concerning 2 Corinthians 5. The whole stream of the passage concerns resurrection. Carrying on from where you left-off, Paul says:

"9 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad."

If understand things correctly, this judgment will occur at the resurrection/ Parousia of the Christ. It is also this judgment which is consistently held up as a motivation for holy living (1 John 2;28, 4:17 etc.). It seems strange that Paul would interject this last day talk by saying that he was looking forward to an interim period. if anything, verse 4 seems to suggest that being without a body was not what he was looking forward to!



I think I'm also with you concering Jesus' dialogue witht he sad-you-sees. However, I still think there are several other passages which seem to strongly indicate a continued conscious existence after death. I think one such example is 2 Peter 1:

"13 I consider it right, as long as I am in this earthly dwelling, to stir you up by way of reminder

Notice, he speaks of being in "this earthly dwelling". The word for "earthly dwelling" is "skenoma" (Str. 4638) which means tabernacle (cf. Acts 7:46). It is closely related to the verb "skene" (Str. 4633) which is twice used to refer to the body in the aforementioned 2 Corinthians 5 passage (v.1 and 4). Both words are used to refer to the Tabernacle of Meeting in the Septuagint. This indicates that both Paul and Peter viewed the body which they occupied. He continues:

“14 knowing that the laying aside of my earthly dwelling is imminent, as also our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me." 2 Peter 1 NASB

Previously, he has spoken of being “in” this tabernacle and now he is speaking of the “laying aside” of it. The Greek noun is "apothesis" (Str. 595). It is used only one other time in the NT, also by Peter:

"21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience" 1 Peter 3 NASB

You see the idea is one of removing something. In this case, it’s dirt from the flesh. When one has a bath, the dirt is removed, but the flesh continues as normal, minus the dirt.

The noun comes from the verb "apotithemi" (Str. 659) and in it’s 8 NT uses, always carries this same idea. Usually it is referring to putting-off immorality. On one occasion, it concerns putting of clothing:

"58 When they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him; and the witnesses laid aside their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul." Acts 7 NASB

Peter was using "apothesis" to show that at his death, he would be "putting aside" his fleshly body which he had previously “tabernacled” in. He then continues by saying:

"15 And I will also be diligent that at any time after my departure you will be able to call these things to mind." 2 Peter 1 NASB

His "departure". While some versions opt to translate the word as "decease," the Greek word is a very familiar one…. "exodus" (Str. 1841)! What was Peter expecting to "exit." Well, of course, death is an exit out of life. But in context, it seems clear that he was speaking of exiting his tabernacle, his body which is was currently “in.”


In summary,
Peter spoke of being “in” his body which he called a "tabernacle". He then spoke of his impending death as being an exit from this dwelling place which he would “lay aside”. All of this sounds like a very strong indication that he was anticipating leaving his body and going somewhere.

Any thoughts?

[Guest]

Thank you for your reply, Ely. I appreciate it.

It seems to me that Peter's "being in this earthly dwelling", is pretty much the same as Paul's being "in this tent" and "being clothed." They simply mean that they are alive. It's figurative speech.

I think Peter's "laying aside" his "earthly dwelling" means death. His death was imminent. Peter and Paul thought of themselves dwelling in an earthly dwelling or tent while here on earth. They thought of the resurrection as "putting on their heavenly dwelling" or tent and "putting on" the heavenly one. I have no reason to believe that in "laying aside" his "earthly dwelling" that Peter had in mind an immediate transfer of some part of his being to heaven. I think he, like Paul, was looking forward to the resurrection when he would no longer have an "earthly dwelling" but a "heavenly" one.

[Guest]

paidion wrote:

I believe the scriptural teaching, when taken as a whole, teaches that when you're dead, you're dead, and you will remain dead until the Lord raises you from death. I do not believe that we are conscious after death until the resurrection.

When Jesus was confronted by the sadducees with the question regarding the woman whose 1st husband died, then the brother married her and he died, etc etc., Jesus said that they were badly mistaken in their thinking. Specifically, he noted that when God appeared to Moses in the burning bush, He said that "I AM" (not was) the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus used this as proof that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were indeed alive (not dead) because he said that God was the father of the living, not the dead.

How do you respond to this, Paidion, in view of your statement above?

thx! TK

[Guest]

I hate to barge in on the discussion.

Just for some balance regarding soul sleep and 2 Cor 5, Paidion and I had a little discussion on this topic awhile back in an unrelated thread if anyone's interested in reading it.

http://www.wvss.com/forumc/viewtopic.ph ... c&start=75

It starts on page 5 or so. You may need to do some wading, there were many discussions going on at the same time.

[Guest]

I hate to barge in on the discussion.

Just for some balance regarding soul sleep and 2 Cor 5, Paidion and I had a little discussion on this topic awhile back in an unrelated thread if anyone's interested in reading it.

http://www.wvss.com/forumc/viewtopic.ph ... c&start=75

It starts on page 5 or so. You may need to do some wading, there were many discussions going on at the same time.

Cool! Thanks Christopher. This is one of two major topics for me right now. The other one is the closely question of anhialationsim/universalism/eternal torment issue.