Is God the author of Confusion?
Yes
Genesis 11:7-9
-Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech..... Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth:
1 Corinthians 1:27
-God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise.
OR
No
1 Corinthians 14:33
-For God is not the author of confusion....
Is God the author of Confusion?
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_SoaringEagle
- Posts: 285
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Is God the author of Confusion?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Context, context, context.
This line of argumentation looks to issue from someone who, with a presupposition against Biblical veracity, takes verses out of their original context in an attempt to have them say something that they really don't say.
1 Corinthians 14:33
This verse is set in the immediate context of having orderly meetings of the church. The surrounding verses direct the activities of the Corinthian church meetings, who, in the larger context of 1 Corinthians, was a church of selfish, immaturity resulting in chaotic meetings. The statement of Paul in verse 33 is meant to convey that God's desire is for peace and clarity when believers meet together. God and His message are truly clear and simple and we should strive to maintain that simplicity.
Do the other verses disagree with this?
I Corinthians 1:27 (NET)
But God chose what the world thinks foolish to shame the wise, and God chose what the world thinks weak to shame the strong.
The context surrounding this verse details God's method. God doesn't play the power and popularity games of our culture and our world, because, inherently, they are silly and inconsequential. For instance, does it really make you better if you are skinnier or richer or powerful or know a lot of stuff? Yet our world operates as if that is the case.
God's message is that you must die to live and you must lose it all to gain everything. Since His message is antithetical to the selfish culture of our world, He purposefully works in an opposite manner so that those who are truly humble can find Him, regardless of their status, riches or power. Therefore, any confusion of humans is self afflicted, brought by a commitment to a system opposed to the truth. These verses are about God bringing clarity and truth to the world, yet many remain "confused" by the Gospel because they refuse to release it. (John 3:19-21)
Genesis 11:7-9
The account of the tower of Babel details an instance of God's direct intervention in history. The people building the tower were committed to their own honor and glory. God stops the building project and lessens the impact of their selfishness by dividing them by language. His act here wasn't about confusing people as much as it was to divide them in order to prevent their evil purposes.
Bottom line:
God has brought confusion to historical situations in order to thwart evil and to further good. However, His overall purpose is to bring humanity to the clear and simple truth of obedience to Him. God's good news is inherently peaceful, simple and orderly, but many bring confusion upon themselves by resisting it. Humanity and evil are the authors of confusion.
Hope this helps
Dave
This line of argumentation looks to issue from someone who, with a presupposition against Biblical veracity, takes verses out of their original context in an attempt to have them say something that they really don't say.
1 Corinthians 14:33
This verse is set in the immediate context of having orderly meetings of the church. The surrounding verses direct the activities of the Corinthian church meetings, who, in the larger context of 1 Corinthians, was a church of selfish, immaturity resulting in chaotic meetings. The statement of Paul in verse 33 is meant to convey that God's desire is for peace and clarity when believers meet together. God and His message are truly clear and simple and we should strive to maintain that simplicity.
Do the other verses disagree with this?
I Corinthians 1:27 (NET)
But God chose what the world thinks foolish to shame the wise, and God chose what the world thinks weak to shame the strong.
The context surrounding this verse details God's method. God doesn't play the power and popularity games of our culture and our world, because, inherently, they are silly and inconsequential. For instance, does it really make you better if you are skinnier or richer or powerful or know a lot of stuff? Yet our world operates as if that is the case.
God's message is that you must die to live and you must lose it all to gain everything. Since His message is antithetical to the selfish culture of our world, He purposefully works in an opposite manner so that those who are truly humble can find Him, regardless of their status, riches or power. Therefore, any confusion of humans is self afflicted, brought by a commitment to a system opposed to the truth. These verses are about God bringing clarity and truth to the world, yet many remain "confused" by the Gospel because they refuse to release it. (John 3:19-21)
Genesis 11:7-9
The account of the tower of Babel details an instance of God's direct intervention in history. The people building the tower were committed to their own honor and glory. God stops the building project and lessens the impact of their selfishness by dividing them by language. His act here wasn't about confusing people as much as it was to divide them in order to prevent their evil purposes.
Bottom line:
God has brought confusion to historical situations in order to thwart evil and to further good. However, His overall purpose is to bring humanity to the clear and simple truth of obedience to Him. God's good news is inherently peaceful, simple and orderly, but many bring confusion upon themselves by resisting it. Humanity and evil are the authors of confusion.
Hope this helps
Dave
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Dave is corret. Greg Koukl wrote a pamphlet called "Never Read a Bible Verse." His argument is this -- if one truly seeks to understand a given passage then they must, without fail, read the whole chapter and preferably the chapter before and after the verse being considered. To give an interpretation without considering this kind of basic contextual treatment will lead to proof-texting, which is an artform perfected by bible skeptics. To the more literate individual, these skeptics end up looking rather silly.
No one would pick up "War and Peace" and flip to page 149, read a sentence, then comment on how it disagrees with a sentence on page 440. What kind of argument would that be? On the Infidel Guy program, the atheist host once brought up two contradictory passages to his Christian guest. When the guest explained to Reggie (the host) that he's looking at passages in isolation, Reggie responded, "You Christians always bring up context. Context this, context that. It's all you guys ever say." So, according to atheists, reading chapters instead of isolated sentences is utter nonsense. I grieve for those poor ignorant souls who write and study literature. They're doing it all wrong according to the standard of biblical skepticism.
No one would pick up "War and Peace" and flip to page 149, read a sentence, then comment on how it disagrees with a sentence on page 440. What kind of argument would that be? On the Infidel Guy program, the atheist host once brought up two contradictory passages to his Christian guest. When the guest explained to Reggie (the host) that he's looking at passages in isolation, Reggie responded, "You Christians always bring up context. Context this, context that. It's all you guys ever say." So, according to atheists, reading chapters instead of isolated sentences is utter nonsense. I grieve for those poor ignorant souls who write and study literature. They're doing it all wrong according to the standard of biblical skepticism.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
People sometimes find contradictions base on translations rather than on what was actually written in the original languages of the bible. Some also build their beliefs upon translations rather than what the writers originally intended.
In Genesis 11:7-9, the Hebrew seems to say that God mingled their languages, although the Septuagint uses a word that can mean to confuse or bewilder.
I Cor 14:33 does not actually say that God is not [the author] of confusion, but rather that He is not [the author] of tumult, or commotion. The adjectival form of the word means "unstable" or "restless".
I Cor 1:27 does not actually say that God chose what is foolish in the world to confound the wise, but rather to shame the wise, or to disgrace the wise.
In Genesis 11:7-9, the Hebrew seems to say that God mingled their languages, although the Septuagint uses a word that can mean to confuse or bewilder.
I Cor 14:33 does not actually say that God is not [the author] of confusion, but rather that He is not [the author] of tumult, or commotion. The adjectival form of the word means "unstable" or "restless".
I Cor 1:27 does not actually say that God chose what is foolish in the world to confound the wise, but rather to shame the wise, or to disgrace the wise.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
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_SoaringEagle
- Posts: 285
- Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2005 10:40 pm
- Location: Louisville, KY
Schoel,
i copied your comments from this thread to the person I am dialoging with, and this is what he had to say:
Your friend's comments on 1 Corinthians 14 are very true and exact. It shows that God is not the author of confusion.
I understand what your friend is stating about 1 Corinthians 1... and yet for all of this it does state, very clearly, that God has caused confusion of the wise. This statement, even in context of that around it, states that God is the author of confusion. Regardless of the intentions of the messenger, regardless of God's reasoning for this, this is what he states very clearly.
I totally agree with your friend's stance on Genesis 11 as well. Again, this shows that God causes confusion on purpose.
So, it still stands, that these are contradictory.
1 Corinthians 14: God does not create confusion.
1 Corinthians 1: God does create confusion.
Genesis 11: God does create confusion.
We have 1 Corinthians 14 on one side.... and 1 Corinthians 1 and Genesis 11 on the other side.
No matter how we try to reconcile these differences (and were I to be forced to make what I felt was a biblical reasoning for these differences I would state mostly what your friend has stated, minus the very last sentence) it still remains that this is a contradiction. Either God does create confusion or he doesn't... this is a simple either/or question. And any grey area in the middle still shows that he does create confusion, even if only once. So, it remains an either (he does) or (he doesn't) stance.
And we have biblical passages on both sides of this fence.
Passage A says God doesn't do something... but passage B and C state that he does (no matter the situation).
This is a contradiction, as my earlier claim states.
i copied your comments from this thread to the person I am dialoging with, and this is what he had to say:
Your friend's comments on 1 Corinthians 14 are very true and exact. It shows that God is not the author of confusion.
I understand what your friend is stating about 1 Corinthians 1... and yet for all of this it does state, very clearly, that God has caused confusion of the wise. This statement, even in context of that around it, states that God is the author of confusion. Regardless of the intentions of the messenger, regardless of God's reasoning for this, this is what he states very clearly.
I totally agree with your friend's stance on Genesis 11 as well. Again, this shows that God causes confusion on purpose.
So, it still stands, that these are contradictory.
1 Corinthians 14: God does not create confusion.
1 Corinthians 1: God does create confusion.
Genesis 11: God does create confusion.
We have 1 Corinthians 14 on one side.... and 1 Corinthians 1 and Genesis 11 on the other side.
No matter how we try to reconcile these differences (and were I to be forced to make what I felt was a biblical reasoning for these differences I would state mostly what your friend has stated, minus the very last sentence) it still remains that this is a contradiction. Either God does create confusion or he doesn't... this is a simple either/or question. And any grey area in the middle still shows that he does create confusion, even if only once. So, it remains an either (he does) or (he doesn't) stance.
And we have biblical passages on both sides of this fence.
Passage A says God doesn't do something... but passage B and C state that he does (no matter the situation).
This is a contradiction, as my earlier claim states.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
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_SoaringEagle
- Posts: 285
- Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2005 10:40 pm
- Location: Louisville, KY
The following comments are by Lee
Addressing Paidion's stance:
I want to make it clear that I'm VERY happy to have his comments in this debate, I appreciate such historical investigation much more than any other form of biblical scholarship. However, I only wish that he had saved me the time from doing research and stated what the greek actually was... darn edumacation!
Regarding Genesis 11:7,
I tried looking up the early Greek translations but couldn't find them... however, with your friends comments it still stands that God did indeed attempt to confuse/confound humans. So the argument still stands, at least on that verse.
Regarding 1 Corinthians 14:33,
I believe that the Greek word used is "Katastasias" which is "not of confusion"... If your friend used a different translation or word than just let me know so that I can research it.
Regarding 1 Corinthians 1:27,
The Greek actually does appear to have meant "to put to shame"... so it appears that your friend is absolutely correct!
I stand corrected on 1 Cor 1:27... however, the other two verses still hold water as far as I can tell.
Addressing Paidion's stance:
I want to make it clear that I'm VERY happy to have his comments in this debate, I appreciate such historical investigation much more than any other form of biblical scholarship. However, I only wish that he had saved me the time from doing research and stated what the greek actually was... darn edumacation!
Regarding Genesis 11:7,
I tried looking up the early Greek translations but couldn't find them... however, with your friends comments it still stands that God did indeed attempt to confuse/confound humans. So the argument still stands, at least on that verse.
Regarding 1 Corinthians 14:33,
I believe that the Greek word used is "Katastasias" which is "not of confusion"... If your friend used a different translation or word than just let me know so that I can research it.
Regarding 1 Corinthians 1:27,
The Greek actually does appear to have meant "to put to shame"... so it appears that your friend is absolutely correct!
I stand corrected on 1 Cor 1:27... however, the other two verses still hold water as far as I can tell.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Lee:
This becomes clear when we examine the other passages in the New Testament where the word is used. The bolded word is the translation that the NASB gives of "akatasasias".
Luke 21:9 "When you hear of wars and disturbances , do not be terrified; for these things must take place first, but the end does not follow immediately."
2 Corinthians 6:5 in beatings, in imprisonments, in tumults , in labors, in sleeplessness, in hunger...
2 Corinthians 12:20 For I am afraid that perhaps when I come I may find you to be not what I wish and may be found by you to be not what you wish; that perhaps there will be strife, jealousy, angry tempers, disputes, slanders, gossip, arrogance, disturbances...
James 3:16 For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing.
So, Lee, I don't think you have a verse which states that God does not cause confusion ---- only that He does not cause such things as tumults, commotion, disturbances, instability, and disorder.
However, the Genesis 11 passage concerning the confusion caused by the creation of many languages, in my opinion, cannot successfully be scripturally negated.
Yes, the Greek word is "akatasasias". I do not think "not of confusion" is the actual meaning of the word. It may be a spin off from the actual meaning. I believe the actual meaning, as most lexicons give, is "tumult, commotion, disorder."Regarding 1 Corinthians 14:33,
I believe that the Greek word used is "Katastasias" which is "not of confusion"... If your friend used a different translation or word than just let me know so that I can research it.
This becomes clear when we examine the other passages in the New Testament where the word is used. The bolded word is the translation that the NASB gives of "akatasasias".
Luke 21:9 "When you hear of wars and disturbances , do not be terrified; for these things must take place first, but the end does not follow immediately."
2 Corinthians 6:5 in beatings, in imprisonments, in tumults , in labors, in sleeplessness, in hunger...
2 Corinthians 12:20 For I am afraid that perhaps when I come I may find you to be not what I wish and may be found by you to be not what you wish; that perhaps there will be strife, jealousy, angry tempers, disputes, slanders, gossip, arrogance, disturbances...
James 3:16 For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing.
So, Lee, I don't think you have a verse which states that God does not cause confusion ---- only that He does not cause such things as tumults, commotion, disturbances, instability, and disorder.
However, the Genesis 11 passage concerning the confusion caused by the creation of many languages, in my opinion, cannot successfully be scripturally negated.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
SE -
I apologize for not responding sooner. Life is busy.
I will simplify.
The context of 1 Corinthians 14 is clearly addressing disciples and followers of Jesus (i.e. those of the Church) in their conduct when meeting together.
The context of 1 Corinthians 1 and Genesis 11 show God's dealing with those who do not believe in Him.
In order to see the statement in 1 Corinthians 14:33 as a Biblical contradiction, you would have to show the statement in 1 Corinthians 14:33, as being universally applied to all people and all time.
For instance, your argument would have the statement read like this:
For God will never cause confusion in any time or situation
The context doesn't lend itself to this.
The point could also be made that the "confused" in 1 Corinthians 1 and Genesis 11 brought this confusion on themselves by their lack of humility and their choice of priorities.
Dave
I apologize for not responding sooner. Life is busy.
My apologies as I may have not simply addressed your point but may have included information not necessarily applicable to the main question.So, it still stands, that these are contradictory.
1 Corinthians 14: God does not create confusion.
1 Corinthians 1: God does create confusion.
Genesis 11: God does create confusion.
We have 1 Corinthians 14 on one side.... and 1 Corinthians 1 and Genesis 11 on the other side.
No matter how we try to reconcile these differences (and were I to be forced to make what I felt was a biblical reasoning for these differences I would state mostly what your friend has stated, minus the very last sentence) it still remains that this is a contradiction. Either God does create confusion or he doesn't... this is a simple either/or question. And any grey area in the middle still shows that he does create confusion, even if only once. So, it remains an either (he does) or (he doesn't) stance.
And we have biblical passages on both sides of this fence.
Passage A says God doesn't do something... but passage B and C state that he does (no matter the situation).
This is a contradiction, as my earlier claim states.
I will simplify.
The context of 1 Corinthians 14 is clearly addressing disciples and followers of Jesus (i.e. those of the Church) in their conduct when meeting together.
The context of 1 Corinthians 1 and Genesis 11 show God's dealing with those who do not believe in Him.
In order to see the statement in 1 Corinthians 14:33 as a Biblical contradiction, you would have to show the statement in 1 Corinthians 14:33, as being universally applied to all people and all time.
For instance, your argument would have the statement read like this:
For God will never cause confusion in any time or situation
The context doesn't lend itself to this.
The point could also be made that the "confused" in 1 Corinthians 1 and Genesis 11 brought this confusion on themselves by their lack of humility and their choice of priorities.
Dave
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason: