how can a good God create a world iwhere there is suffering

[Guest]

Hello Rob,

Quote: "I stand convinced that he is wrong in his views of Gods election.."

For my own edification, how so?

In Jesus,
Bob

[Guest]

Hello Rob,

Quote: "I stand convinced that he is wrong in his views of Gods election.."

For my own edification, how so?

In Jesus,
Bob

Because I see God's election as a corporate election (electing those who chose to follow Christ), not an individual election. But I really don't desire to rehash this subject do to a lack of time, and a desire to not repeat conversations that have already taken place recently.

Here is an explanation I gave to another Calvinist on this forum in a private correspondence on the subject of election, specifically Jacob and Esau:

In answering your question, because the "2 nations view" has been thoroughly dealt with and refuted long ago, time and time again. John Piper did an excellent commentary on Romans 9, "The Justification of God"; in fact, did an entire 400+ page book on it. Exegeting every single passage in the Greek, looking at all the OT passages in Hebrew, and pretty much wrestling (and answering) every major objection raised.

I understand that you and many other Calvinists are satisfied with the reform theological position on this issue. However, your comment does not take into account that, from my position the issues of election and how the passages regarding Jacob & Esau being chose from the time before their birth, has been thoroughly dealt with to my satisfaction. I would point you to the writing of John Wesley, whom I hold in high regard.

As for the question of Jacob and Esau. What was Jacob personally elected for? Was it eternal salvation, or service? And who was the benefactor of this election? Well, lets consult the scripture for answers;

27:27And he came near and kissed him; and he smelled the smell of his clothing, and blessed him and said: "Surely, the smell of my son Is like the smell of a field Which the Lord has blessed.
27:28Therefore may God give you Of the dew of heaven, Of the fatness of the earth, And plenty of grain and wine.
27:29Let peoples serve you, And nations bow down to you. Be master over your brethren, And let your mother's sons bow down to you. Cursed be everyone who curses you, And blessed be those who bless you!"


Now I know Jacob personally received the blessing from Isaac, but where do we see the fulfillment of this blessing? Only in the decedents of Jacob, namely the nation Israel, and Jesus Christ Himself. For God had chosen Jacob’s descendants and not Esau’s to deliver the Messiah, and to be His covenant people. The blessing decreed that Jacob would be master over his brethren, yet Jacob never fulfilled this. The only fulfillment is in the nation Israel.

So the election of Jacob was not for salvation, but for service of the covenant. Not individual election, and not for salvation.

Anyhow, a few pointers showing that individuals are the issue. But one quick question, I want to know if you're more comfortable with God predestining entire nations, instead of individuals? Is that more fair for you? Is it that if you have a single person, it's quite "unfair", but as you keep adding more and more people to the list, the fairness quotient rises?

Am I comfortable with God predestining nations for service? Of course, who am I to object to such a thing?

If Jacob and Esau are nations, why is Paul saying "before either one was born or had done anything good or bad", nations are 'born' and do 'good' and 'bad' things? It speaks of Rebekah conceiving twins by one man.

Again lets look at the passage:

9:10And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac
9:11(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
9:12it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger."
9:13As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."
9:14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!

Well, if we have individuals in view here, are we to assume that the spirit was wrong about Esau serving Jacob? This never happened.
Quote:

Verse 15 says "mercy on WHOM" and "compassion on WHOM", referring to individual people, singular, not plural, not groups.

Why would “WHOM” need only to refer to a singular individual, and not a singular Nation?


Verse 16 says "man who wills/runs" not men, not nations, not groups. Do

nations "will" and "run"? Paul refers to singular individuals again in v. 17 (Pharaoh).

9:16So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

If it is Gods will to Show Mercy on whom He wants, who am I to abject? However, I think you should do a word study on mercy and compassion, and see how these words and used in other passages. I think you will be surprised. I’ll give you a head start. The Hebrew word for mercy is ‘chanan’ and compassion is ‘racham’.

Chanan – Gen. 33:11, 2 Sam. 12:22, Ps 31:9, 41:10, 56:1, 4:1, 27:7

Racham – Jer. 13:14, 21:7 Duet. 13:17, Ps 78:38, Ezek. 39:25, Jer. 30:18.

These words can refer to saving grace or compassion that leads to salvation, but this use is not common.

Of course there are more references, but this is a good start.

Right now I must go, I will try and get to the rest later.

I hope this explains my position.

Thank you,
Robin

[Guest]

Hello Rob,

Thanks for your reply. I have never entered into any debate here over election though. And, btw, I am not a "Calvinist". I may agree with some of their views. But I also agree with some of the views held by Messianic Jews, Arminians, Catholics, Baptists, Lutherens etc. Afterall, didn't Jesus say; " the wind blows wherever it pleases "? I don't think God plays denominational or dogmatic favorites. I just wanted your take why you believed the way you do, not necesarily draw you out for a debate on election.

In Jesus,
Bob

[Guest]

Hello Rob,

Thanks for your reply. I have never entered into any debate here over election though. And, btw, I am not a "Calvinist". I may agree with some of their views. But I also agree with some of the views held by Messianic Jews, Arminians, Catholics, Baptists, Lutherens etc. Afterall, didn't Jesus say; " the wind blows wherever it pleases "? I don't think God plays denominational or dogmatic favorites. I just wanted your take why you believed the way you do, not necesarily draw you out for a debate on election.

In Jesus,
Bob

No problem Bob. I'm glad I was able to share my view with you on the subject.

Robin