So you say we have free will?

[Guest]

According to Christian thinking either we have free will or God micromanages everything. But according to 1 John 2.16 "For everything that belongs to the world ,the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life" is from the world.
Yet when Eve was created all these desires manifested in her before she externally disobeyed God therefore when God created everything and "saw" it was good, what was meant by God. Did the word "good" mean perfect or did the word "good" mean good for the purpose it was intended.
According to Ray Comfort from "Way of the Master" ministries 85% of new believers fall away. Is it that at some point these new believers sat down and decided that eternal life in heaven was'nt worth the cost of following Jesus for a few years on earth based on their free will?
Human nature is designed to naturally follow the path of least resistence just like water and just the way Eve was made. The path of least resistence is to give in to the lusts of this world and the reason God made human beings with these weaknesses built in, is so humanity experiences evil because God said that it is through this path that we can become like Him. That's why God does not intervene most of the time because it would hinder His own objectives for humanity which is to go through the valley of evil.
Is this free will? IMO we can overcome evil through Christ but it's counter-intuitive to human nature which is why 85% of new believers fall away and which is why that although we can make choices , we do not have free or unencumbered will.
I remember Nancy Reagen was the spokesperson for an anti-drug program in the 80s called "Just say no" based on man's ability to say "no" to drugs because we have free will. It did'nt work because man has an addictive nature whether to drugs or sin and it takes a lot to overcome this nature. It takes a lot more then just saying "no" to drugs and "yes" to Christ, it takes surrendering ourselves to an outside force.
Surrending is usually done as a last resort and is above and beyond free will IMO.

[Guest]

According to Ray Comfort from "Way of the Master" ministries 85% of new believers fall away.

If I remember correctly, the statistic was from a large mainstream denomination here in America... that 85% of those professing decisions for Christ "fall away" in that denominational survey.

I don't think the same statistic would be true in most other countries -- especially countries where Christians are persecuted and the cost is high to start following Jesus in the first place.

[Guest]

Steve 7150

According to Christian thinking either we have free will or God micromanages everything. But according to 1 John 2.16 "For everything that belongs to the world ,the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life" is from the world.
Yet when Eve was created all these desires manifested in her before she externally disobeyed God therefore when God created everything and "saw" it was good, what was meant by God. Did the word "good" mean perfect or did the word "good" mean good for the purpose it was intended.

When God created everything "good" it means "good", and not merely useful for some purpose. Adam and Eve were good. Indeed they were created in the IMAGE OF GOD! Surely that which is created in the image of God is supremely good! In what way were they created in the image of God? It was certainly not a physical image, since God is not a physical being; He is spirit. I believe they, like God Himself, were given free will.
Since they had free will, the possibility of choosing rebellion was always there. They chose to disobey, not because they were created with an evil disposition, but because the possibility was there because of the free will with which they were bestowed.

When Eve was offered the possibility to be God-like in the knowledge of good and evil, she thought it preferable to being without that knowledge. So she freely chose that course, rather than obeying God's command.

[Guest]

agreed, paidion, but it begs the question as to whether adam and eve could have resisted rebellion indefinitely, given their free will. this is the question that is difficult for me. the difference between God's free will and their free will, i surmise, is that God is not "free" to do evil(at least i do not think he is), while they were.

TK

[Guest]

but it begs the question as to whether adam and eve could have resisted rebellion indefinitely


Good observation, why would this temptation be the last? Could they have been perfect since they quite clearly had these lusts already in their makeup.
I don't think they could have resisted indefinetly and IMO God would have kept testing them because as God said himself we must know evil to be like God. And God made us for the purpose of having Godly offspring (Mal 2.15).

[Guest]

i hear you, Steve, but i am going to stop just short of saying the God WANTED adam and eve to sin. whether he expected them to is another matter.

TK

[Guest]

Hello Steve,

Quote: "Yet when Eve was created all these desires manifested in her before she externally disobeyed God therefore when God created everything and "saw" it was good, what was meant by God. Did the word "good" mean perfect or did the word "good" mean good for the purpose it was intended".

Good question. God pronounced that what He created was "good" and
I think at the very least, it means He was satisfied with His work. But the question I raised in my own mind was, does "good" in this sense mean "complete"? Eve's desires were not in and of themselves, wrong, IMO. Desire afterall, was a communicable attribute of God given to man who was created in His Image.
So I think "good" simply means in the context, God was happy with His work. But, I don't think from a moral perspective, God's work was complete.

In Jesus,
Bob

[Guest]

I agree with you, Bob, that "good" does not mean "complete", but rather indicates that God was satisfied with His work. There were no flaws in it.
Being "perfect" means being "complete"; it does not mean being flawless.
Adam and Eve, as created by God were flawless. That didn't necessarily mean that they would stay that way. Indeed, they were far from complete. Though they had adult bodies, it seems they were immature, possibly immature as children are immature.

We may notice that God put the tree of life in the garden, too. But it seems that Adam and Eve had never participated of the fruit of that tree, or they would have lived forever. So after they sinned, God banished them from the garden, so that they wouldn't eat from the tree of life, and live forever with sinful natures.

However, God never forbade them from eating from the tree of life before they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. I have wondered what would have happened, if they had chosen to eat from the tree of life first.

I suspect that they would have matured, and then been in a postion to handle eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It is my guess, that when they had matured, God would have lifted the restriction from eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. I think God put the latter tree into the garden with the intent that Adam and Eve would someday eat from it ----- but not until they had tasted of real life and matured.

Satan got them to do it in reverse ---- eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil first. This is Satan's way, get people to do things backwards or in the wrong order, so as not to obey God's specific commands. It seems to be happening still. For example, God wants a man and a woman to commit themselves to each other in marriage for life, and then come together in the marriage bed, and have children. But in this day, many, or perhaps most, couples do it in reverse. They go to bed first, and may also have children, and then they decide to get married, (if they are compatible).

The question as to whether man can persever indefinitely in either good or evil, is a profound one. But if a person can remain without sinning for one minute, surely he could do it for 2 minutes, and if for 2 minutes, why not for 10 minutes? If he can do it for 10 minutes, why not an hour? A day? A week? A month? A year? A decade? A life time? But when you ask whether he can refrain from sinning forever, the question becomes d ifficult. Perhaps if he has become conformed to the image of Christ, and has, by God's grace, developed a Christ-like nature, he can continue in righteousness indefinitely.

Can a person continue in rebellion against God indefinitely? We can begin with the same questions. Can he do it for a minute, a day, a month, a year, etc. Some say he can do it forever, even as they endure the corrrective fires of Gehenna. Thus they argue against the reconcilation of all to God, as the scripture teaches.

I suppose that theoretically, they could keep up their rebellion for ever. But I believe it to be a practical impossibility.

As for the other side, keeping up righteousness forever ---- without God's enabling grace, that seems to be a practical impossibility also. I wonder how long those angels (who were also created flawless), who rebelled against God, had served Him faithfully without sin before they rebelled?
For millions of years maybe?

When we begin to reason about matters which the Scriptures do not reveal, it seems that we can speculate, but cannot arrive at a place where we can know the answers.

[Guest]

I agree with you, Bob, that "good" does not mean "complete", but rather indicates that God was satisfied with His work. There were no flaws in it.
Being "perfect" means being "complete"; it does not mean being flawless.
Adam and Eve, as created by God were flawless. That didn't necessarily mean that they would stay that way. Indeed, they were far from complete. Though they had adult bodies, it seems they were immature, possibly immature as children are immature.

We may notice that God put the tree of life in the garden, too. But it seems that Adam and Eve had never participated of the fruit of that tree, or they would have lived forever. So after they sinned, God banished them from the garden, so that they wouldn't eat from the tree of life, and live forever with sinful natures.

However, God never forbade them from eating from the tree of life before they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. I have wondered what would have happened, if they had chosen to eat from the tree of life first.

I suspect that they would have matured, and then been in a postion to handle eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It is my guess, that when they had matured, God would have lifted the restriction from eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. I think God put the latter tree into the garden with the intent that Adam and Eve would someday eat from it ----- but not until they had tasted of real life and matured.

Satan got them to do it in reverse ---- eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil first. This is Satan's way, get people to do things backwards or in the wrong order, so as not to obey God's specific commands. It seems to be happening still. For example, God wants a man and a woman to commit themselves to each other in marriage for life, and then come together in the marriage bed, and have children. But in this day, many, or perhaps most, couples do it in reverse. They go to bed first, and may also have children, and then they decide to get married, (if they are compatible).

The question as to whether man can persever indefinitely in either good or evil, is a profound one. But if a person can remain without sinning for one minute, surely he could do it for 2 minutes, and if for 2 minutes, why not for 10 minutes? If he can do it for 10 minutes, why not an hour? A day? A week? A month? A year? A decade? A life time? But when you ask whether he can refrain from sinning forever, the question becomes d ifficult. Perhaps if he has become conformed to the image of Christ, and has, by God's grace, developed a Christ-like nature, he can continue in righteousness indefinitely.

Can a person continue in rebellion against God indefinitely? We can begin with the same questions. Can he do it for a minute, a day, a month, a year, etc. Some say he can do it forever, even as they endure the corrrective fires of Gehenna. Thus they argue against the reconcilation of all to God, as the scripture teaches.

I suppose that theoretically, they could keep up their rebellion for ever. But I believe it to be a practical impossibility.

As for the other side, keeping up righteousness forever ---- without God's enabling grace, that seems to be a practical impossibility also. I wonder how long those angels (who were also created flawless), who rebelled against God, had served Him faithfully without sin before they rebelled?
For millions of years maybe?

When we begin to reason about matters which the Scriptures do not reveal, it seems that we can speculate, but cannot arrive at a place where we can know the answers.

First let me say I agree with you and have believed this for sometime.
I have always wondered why the Calvinists & Mormons assumed that the tree of knowledge was for Adam and Eve to eat from and put there deliberately to be tempted.
Mormons believe that they would not know how to procreate and Calvinists think that we need to be some part of a Broadway production with some awesome ending. How overconfident are some people to believe that it had to happen this way.
That tree was there for the heavenly bodies, God more specifically, it was his and for his pleasure. Just because there is a nice car on my street does not mean its mine to take. God creates a whole paradise and chooses to put one tree their for his pleasure and ask please don’t touch. Remember that tree was the knowledge of good and evil (And Jehovah God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.) Again I agree that if they ate from the tree of life first this would have been a mute point and think we wouldn’t be having these debates with Calvinists because they wouldn’t have existed they would be as we are, knowing the truth. That’s Paradise.