The Greatest Optical Illusion in the World

Post by **_TK** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 9:08 am

there are anectodotal accounts of missing limbs regenerating in other countries, and i stress anectdotal. jim rutz's book "megashift" talks about them (along with dead raisings) and his website might have some stories.

i agree that the question is disturbing. there are many people in my church who have been dx'd with cancer in the last couple of months. i am homestly not sure how to pray for them, or what to pray, at least with any measure of real faith. i think this is a very important topic to discuss.

TK

Post by **_james** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 9:45 am

TK wrote:there are anectodotal accounts of missing limbs regenerating in other countries, and i stress anectdotal. jim rutz's book "megashift" talks about them (along with dead raisings) and his website might have some stories.

i agree that the question is disturbing. there are many people in my church who have been dx'd with cancer in the last couple of months. i am homestly not sure how to pray for them, or what to pray, at least with any measure of real faith. i think this is a very important topic to discuss.

TK

TK, these things always happen in some out of the way village where there is little or no real documentation. How about a couple of before or after pictures? I question their validity.

This causes me to believe that some spiritual gifts may have ceased. Of course if a friend or loved one was hurt I would still pray with all my heart for healing.

Post by **_tartanarmy** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:44 pm

Challenging words to instruct us.

Php 4:11 Not that I speak according to need, for I have learned to be content in whatever state I am.

Jer 45:5 And do you seek great things for yourself? Do not seek them; for behold, I will bring evil on all flesh, says Jehovah. But I will give your life to you as a prize, in all places where you go.

2Co 12:7 and by the surpassing revelations, lest I be made haughty, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be made haughty.
2Co 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord three times, that it might depart from me.
2Co 12:9 And He said to me, My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore I will rather glory in my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may overshadow me.
2Co 12:10 Therefore I am pleased in weaknesses, in insults, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake; for when I am weak, then I am powerful.

Mark

Post by **__id_2243** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:40 pm

I really don't have anything substantively new to add to the response to that video, but I can't help posting because it's so facially absurd it makes me wonder whether it's serious. This would be a devastating argument against Christianity for somebody whose belief in Christianity is grounded solely upon the efficacy of prayer as understood by Christianity.com. For what it's worth, I had never heard the "yes, no or wait" formulation but it's obviously vacuous and I can't imagine why anyone would think that a 9-minute video with grpaphics is necessary to point out that "yes, no or wait" covers any possible outcome. I really try to acknowledge the strengths in arguments from non-Christian perspectives (and was just recently suggesting atheist responses to arguments from rationality in another thread, for example), but this one just leaves me dumbfounded. It's possible I'm just missing a larger point with the video.

Regards,

CThomas

Post by **_TK** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:48 pm

the point that atheists make, CT, is that if you pray to a totem pole, one of the three things will happen.

of course the video misses the whole point of prayer anyway, i.e. that it is not about simply asking for things.

TK

Post by **_Paidion** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:22 pm

For what it's worth, I had never heard the "yes, no or wait" formulation but it's obviously vacuous...

I've heard it many times ---- from the pulpit, from adult Sunday School teachers, and from individuals. I have had the same problem with it.

What do you think of the statement one hears so often, "God is good!"
It seems to be a statement made in isolation. I always feel like asking, "How do you know God is good?" or "What would the world be like if God were not good?"

I also have a major problem with "God is in control" where it means that God plans and carries out every event that takes place. If that is true, then what would the world be like if God did not plan and carry out every event?

Post by **_Steve** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:41 pm

Jim wrote:

"Do we believe that healing is for today? (I'm personally not sure) Then how is it that we never see missing limbs being regenerated?"

Whether the age of miracles has passed or not, I should not expect to see limbs regenerated (except on lizards and octopi). Miracles of that sort have never been claimed in scripture as ever occurring. The healings in the Bible typically repaired damaged parts (e.g., optic nerves, leprous skin, withered hands and impotent legs), but were not, to my recollection, involved in creating de novo parts that were not there.

Post by **_Paidion** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:29 pm

Steve:

The healings in the Bible typically repaired damaged parts (e.g., optic nerves, leprous skin, withered hands and impotent legs), but were not, to my recollection, involved in creating de novo parts that were not there.

I don't deny any of this. Yet it is interesting that sometimes parts grow back on human beings too, not only on lizards and octopi. Indeed, this happened to my own mother, who, as a little girl had the upper part of her finger (down to the first joint) cut off by a door. Not only did the end of her finger grow back, but the finger nail as well.

Post by **_james** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:56 am

Steve wrote:Jim wrote:

"Do we believe that healing is for today? (I'm personally not sure) Then how is it that we never see missing limbs being regenerated?"

Whether the age of miracles has passed or not, I should not expect to see limbs regenerated (except on lizards and octopi). Miracles of that sort have never been claimed in scripture as ever occurring. The healings in the Bible typically repaired damaged parts (e.g., optic nerves, leprous skin, withered hands and impotent legs), but were not, to my recollection, involved in creating de novo parts that were not there.

Steve why shouldn't we expect to see such wonders? Is it that God can't or won't - and if it's won't - why not? Are not amputees candidates for divine healing?

Post by **_Steve** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:26 am

Paidion wrote:

I don't deny any of this. Yet it is interesting that sometimes parts grow back on human beings too, not only on lizards and octopi. Indeed, this happened to my own mother, who, as a little girl had the upper part of her finger (down to the first joint) cut off by a door. Not only did the end of her finger grow back, but the finger nail as well.

Chuck Smith (not a professed miracle-worker, generally) reports two remarkable cases in his ministry: one like that of Paidion's mother, where a boy's finger and fingernail grew back in one day after being severed at the first knockle, and another where a man with a glass eye had a real eye spontaneously grow in and force the glass eye out.

I cannot attest to these two miracles, but Chuck is a sane and sober man, who plainly says that he has never had much miracle-working power in his ministry.