signs and wonders

[Guest]

“I can't read the Book of Acts without feeling very much ashamed! The apostles lived and ministered in the realm of the miraculous. Even the laymen like Stephen and Philip, men who served tables, were mighty in the Holy Ghost, working miracles and stirring entire cities. Who can read the Book of Acts without awe and wonder at the miracles God worked for them and among them? Angels appeared to them, unlocked their chains, and walked them out of high security prisons. They had mighty visions, clear and detailed. Peter was so full of the Holy Ghost that the sick were brought into the streets on beds and couches so that his shadow would fall on them for healing (Acts 5:15). Cripples were healed and went leaping through the temple; and special miracles are recorded: ‘And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul: so that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them (Acts 19:11-12).’

Why are we not living today in such a miraculous realm? Where is the apostolic power of Jesus Christ today? I'm not talking about deliverance meetings and star healing evangelists. I'm talking about a miraculous way of living for every true believer. God has not changed; we have. The same Lord is with us - we have the same promises and God is more than willing to do it again. But regrettably, there is an idea today that we don't need the miraculous. It is said, "This generation has a greater revelation; it's more educated, more knowledgeable. We are not to expect the Lord to work like that today, as that was only necessary to establish the church." - David Wilkerson

Could this be the reason:
When Moses brought Israel out of Egypt it was with great signs and wonders. This established a testimony of God that Israel was to memorialize in the Passover & feasts. But God did not repeat those miracles. Jesus came bearing a testimony to the power of God and passed that power onto His apostles to establish the churches. We have this testimony established for us too.

So why do these miracles not occur now in that same manifestation of the glory of God? Could it be because we are to walk by faith and not by sight? Every Christian ought to have a testimony of the power of God at work in his life. But should that witness supercede that of Moses or Jesus?

I present this as a discussion starter - However, I won't be around for a few days. Don't let that stop you if you have your own ideas on the subject.

[Guest]

I am of the persuasion that abundant miracles only occur in clusters. Miracles surrounded the time of Moses, some of the prophets, Jesus and the early church, but that doesn't necessarily mean miracles are supposed to be the norm. Miracles, by definition, are not the norm.

Of course, God can do a miracle whenever He wants. And I do believe He does miracles today. But I'm not expecting a steady stream of miracles.

[Guest]

John 14:12: “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.

Was Jesus just whistlin' Dixie?

TK

[Guest]

John 14:12: “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.

Was Jesus just whistlin' Dixie?

TK

Just wondering TK, what were those greater works? What could possibly be greater then the works already done?

[Guest]

As a side note:
Isaiah and his son's were said to be for "signs and wonders" (Isa 8:18 ), yet we don't read of them performing any miracles. The meanings of their names were actually the signs and wonders which conveyed information, namely the heart and mind of God. This makes me think that signs and wonders may be a different category than miracles.

Pertaining miracles today:
Maybe we don't see many miracles today (at least in the U.S.) like the book of Acts because we are such a wealthy and powerful nation that doesn't necessarily rely on faith as much as our wealth and power. Why would someone need faith that their knee problems can be miraculously healed if they can just go to the local doctor and have their insurance cover it. Maybe this is why we hear of so many miracles in third world countries. Some people only have faith to rely on.
Maybe I'm off base but it does seem that faith has a major role in the miraculous in some way because Jesus couldn't perform many "mighty works" (I take that to be miracles) in His hometown because of a lack of faith (Matt 13:53-58 ).

[Guest]

John 14:12: “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.

Was Jesus just whistlin' Dixie?

TK

I think Jesus said that to the Twelve, who DID do such miracles.
I think it's specifically talking about the initial outpouring of the Spirit
But I could be wrong, I've heard many views on that verse
And I think I've forgotten the best of them

[Guest]

To be honest I have heard second hand of spectacular miricles, coming about in the presense of people in third world countries, which have manifested themselves during the preching of the gospel to masses of people. I have also heard of a wonderful provision God made for a missionary who was behind the iron curtain. Not to mention the extraordinary blessings in my own life. (for example I was saved from certain death at least 3 times in my life and that as a direct intervention by God). But this is not what we are talking about here. Instead I think the issue to be why the Church is not able to preform legitimate miracles or at least on the level as the first century Church was able to?

[Guest]

i think there is much truth in what John B states.

I think the American church, especially, has faith (even if it is only a mustard seed, which is all that is needed) but we are racked by unbelief.

Yes, i believe a person can have faith and unbelief at the same time. a little unbelief can counter a lot of faith.

yes, Jesus was talking to the disciples in John 14:12, but why shouldnt the same apply to us, if we believe? Jesus said it was actually better that he leave, so the Spirit could come. That's hard to fathom- what could be better than being with Jesus? but, that is what He said. I dont see how it can be limited just to those believers in his hearing. of course it's just my opinion. don't think i could stand it if it didnt apply to us, to. if it doesnt, i suppose we are destined to being powerless and ineffective.

TK

[Guest]

I wasn't saying, of course, that miracles can't/don't occur in our day. I'm saying that the purpose of miracles is primarily to confirm a specific move of God. That's why miracles clustered around the Prophets, Jesus & Apostles and around key moments in the Biblical narrative. God didn't even do miracles through Jesus until the most significant 3 years of His life.

Our faith isn't supposed to be based in present miracles, but in the reality of the Person of Jesus Christ.

[Guest]

This is not an answer but rather "food for thought".

Last week I was at a meeting listening to a Palestinian Christian speak (by the way, it was fascinating listening to what he had to say). One of the things he mentioned was how people talk about wanting to re-live the days of the early Church with all the miracles. His response was "does that include encountering/re-living the suffering of the early Church as well"?

Is it merely a coincidence that miracles are most common amongst Christians facing the greatest opposition and suffering? Maybe not.