Did Jesus promote Murder (Luke 19:27)

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_Christopher
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Post by _Christopher » Sun Dec 09, 2007 4:45 pm

Danny wrote:
There is a completely different, and very thought provoking, take on this parable from N.T. Wright, who suggests that Jesus is actually describing His present approach to Jerusalem as the return of the king.
Very interesting. I also first heard this view from Wright and the more I've pondered it, the more it makes sense to me.

Steve wrote:
The only other explanation that someone might see in it would be the judgment on the Jews in AD 70, but I don't think that fits the chronology of the parable that well, since the judgment on the rebels is placed after the rewarding of the faithful servants, which sounds like the second coming to me.

Wright is constantly bringing up Isaiah 40-55 in relation to Jesus' ministry at his 1st coming. Coincidentally, while reading Isaiah this morning, I came across this passage and it caught my eye.


Isa 40:10-11
10 Behold, the Lord GOD shall come with a strong hand,
And His arm shall rule for Him;
Behold, His reward is with Him,
And His work before Him.
11 He will feed His flock like a shepherd;
He will gather the lambs with His arm,
And carry them in His bosom,
And gently lead those who are with young.
NKJV


sounds a lot like...

Rev 22:12
12 "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.
NKJV


That would also make more sense of his statement in Matt 16...

Matt 16:27-28
27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."
NKJV



Although I can't completely articulate all of it yet, I am coming to suspect more and more that Jesus spoke very little of His second coming. At least less than I've historically thought anyways, even in recent years. Consequently, I've been trying the parables (like this one and Matt 13 and 25) on for size with those lenses to see how they might work out. Can't say for sure yet.

Argh! Where is this taking me? :?
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Post by _Paidion » Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:22 pm

Christopher wrote:Argh! Where is this taking me? :?
Please let us know where you end up, when you find out. :)

In science circles, the simpler theory usually ends up being accepted. For example, when burning of wood with ashes remaining was explained in terms of loss of phlogiston, it took some pretty complex explanations to account for the fact that the "ashes" remaining after magnesium burns are heavier than the initial magnesium. It complicates things to account for this by saying that pholgiston sometimes has negative weight and sometimes doesn't. A much simpler theory was proposed by Joseph Priestly concerning the chemical combinaton of oxygen from the air with the elements of combustion.
Matt 16:27-28
27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."
NKJV
Similarily, it seems simpler to account for the "some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom" that it is to explain that that Christ came in His kingdom in 70 A.D. and then try to account for 70 A.D. as the time when "the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works." Who was rewarded according to his works at that time? The Jews who suffered so horribly? Were they any worse sinners than anyone else that they should have been so rewarded? Were there any righteous rewarded at that time?
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:03 pm

Matt 16:27-28
27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."
NKJV


The Son of Man "coming in his kingdom" could be referring back to Dan 7.13 "One like the Son of Man was coming" and then the kingdom was given to him when He came to be at the right hand of God therefore i think it could be referring to his ascension to the throne after the 40 days after his resurrection.
And if you believe that at death our spirits go to be with the Lord then the disciples could have received their rewards at that point and not 2,000 years later at the second coming.
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:10 pm

The only other explanation that someone might see in it would be the judgment on the Jews in AD 70, but I don't think that fits the chronology of the parable that well, since the judgment on the rebels is placed after the rewarding of the faithful servants, which sounds like the second coming to me.


I think it is most likely 70AD since what relevance would the second coming have to Jesus's listeners and why do His servants have to wait for his second coming to receive rewards? Are'nt they "with the Lord" at death? Isn't "to die is gain" a reward in itself?
In another words the servants he is talking to are his disciples and THEY will receive their rewards before 70AD.
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Post by _anothersteve » Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:12 pm

Mat 16:27-28 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

I think John Calvin may have had a good point about verse 28.
28. Verily, I say to you. As the disciples might still hesitate and inquire when that day would be, our Lord animates them by the immediate assurance, that he will presently give them a proof of his future glory. We know the truth of the common proverb, that to one who is in expectation even speed looks like delay; but never does it hold more true, than when we are told to wait for our salvation till the coming of Christ. To support his disciples in the meantime, our Lord holds out to them, for confirmation, an intermediate period; as much as to say, “If it seem too long to wait for the day of my coming, I will provide against this in good time; for before you come to die, you will see with your eyes that kingdom of God, of which I bid you entertain a confident hope.”
He believes that Jesus is talking about a future judgement in verse 27. In order to give his disciples confidence in what he says, he assures them(in verse 28 ) they will see the kingdom coming in their lifetime as evidence that what he says about a future judgement (verse 27) is true as well. Therefore, I think verse 27 is likely refering to his second coming.

I realize some think verse 28 is referring to either the transfiguration, Pentecost or 70AD. I have a notion that he could be referring to all 3, with the culmination occurring in 70AD. Up until this time, although they had seen miracles, the disciples had only seen him as a man. The transfiguration, the resurrection and the experience of Pentecost all revealed the glory of his Kingdom. 70AD would also reveal His Kingdom and be the icing on the cake to prove that when he says he's "going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done" He can be taken at his word!!
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Post by _Paidion » Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:23 am

...why do His servants have to wait for his second coming to receive rewards?
Because Jesus said so.

Mat 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.
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Post by _Christopher » Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:00 am

Sorry for the lengthy post, but I have to lay some ground work or what I have to say will make no sense whatsoever.

The current discussion started off by Danny giving a view that NT Wright holds about the nobleman receiving a kingdom in Luke 19 which happens to make some sense to me.

Although I have not studied the man’s work nearly as much as I plan to, I’m going to summarize what I believe to be Wrights’ general perspective on the ministry of Jesus.

It is suggested by Wright that Jesus’ ministry parallels many, if not all, of the significant events in the OT, and that His coming on the scene was the climax, or the culmination and fulfillment of the whole story of human history, especially through the Jews including the Exodus, the exile, and even creation itself. According to Wright, Jesus was a prophet (and of course more than that) who used the same kind of symbolic language and dramatic spectacle that the OT prophets used (if I understand him correctly) who saw His “vocation” as the One who was to communicate the good news (and bad news for some) of the Kingdom to the nation of Israel and also to tell them of the certain judgment that is coming. The parables and miracles of Jesus communicated a symbolic prophetic message that was relatively imminent in nature. That is a very crude summary of what my understanding is of Wright’s perspective on Jesus (again, I may not be completely accurate in my understanding of his views here).

With that paradigm in view, I’m looking at some of the passages with a different set of eyes and trying to bring this assumption to them in order to see if it works or not. Some of those passages are ones that I've always been pretty sure were talking about the second coming (like the Luke 19 passage).

As with Isaiah, Jesus preached to a people whose majority would not heed the message. I believe that itself may have been God’s judgment on a people that had so hardened their hearts against God, they were beyond the point of turning back. This is illustrated even in one of the sections in Matthew I’m reconsidering at the present. In Matthew 13:14, Jesus uses Isaiah 6:9-10 to answer why he speaks to the people in parables. In Isaiah’s passage, right after Isaiah signs up to go on the mission field, God tells him to preach to a people that will never accept his message and repent (how’s that for an evangelist pep talk? You still in Izzy?). I’ve always stumbled over Matthew 13 and wondered why Jesus would purposely confuse the masses. Why didn't He just tell them plainly so they would repent and believe.

But wait, Isaiah says there’s a faithful remnant that will return. It makes sense to me that Jesus was preaching two messages simultaneously. To the remnant that would receive it, the message was that their King has returned to claim His Kingdom and it was good news. To the unfaithful, the message was that their King has returned and caught them red-handed and now they will be judged for their works (bad news).

So, in that same chapter, we have the parable of the wheat and the tares (vs.24-30) that I’ve always taken to be describing the church age and finally ending in the second coming. I do not know what Wright’s views are about this passage, so I can’t speak for him. But I’m reconsidering it with his framework in mind.

The interesting thing to me is that the passage in Psalms (Ps 78 ) that Matthew uses as a prophesy that has its fulfillment in Jesus’ use of parables, has language that speaks describes a similar judgment. And in that lengthy psalm describing the exodus (among other things), we have the following line:

Ps 78:49
49 He cast on them the fierceness of His anger,
Wrath, indignation, and trouble,
By sending angels of destruction among them.
NKJV


Now, I would guess that the Egyptians didn’t think to attribute their destruction to God’s “angels”, nor the Assyrians when the angel smote 185,000 (2Ki 19:35), nor the Syrians who were struck with blindness (2Ki 6) by angels that only Elisha and his servant could see.

So my question is, why can we not allow that in 70AD, Jesus indeed came with His holy angels to judge the nation of Israel and give each man his reward? Keeping in mind, the word “reward” is not always used in scripture to denote a positive thing, but sometimes a negative. Also, if I were living in a nation that was being judged, I would consider it quite a “reward” to escape that judgment. Furthermore, Jesus told Peter in Matt 19:

Matt 19:28-30
"Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.
NKJV


It seems reasonable to me to say that the “regeneration” He is speaking of here is what occurs when believers receive the Holy Spirit (post-resurrection) upon becoming followers of Christ. Peter and the other disciples were exalted to a place of authority in the church to the degree that we still hold their words as authoritative in the church, even for judging other believers. This would suggest to me that they did receive their reward for faithfully following Jesus.

All that to say….those are just some of the things I’m pondering about and I’m still looking into it.

Anyway, my wife’s having our baby tomorrow (Lord willing) so I think I’d better go and get some rest. :D

P.S. If I take a few days to respond.... well, you understand. 8)
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:49 am

Anyway, my wife’s having our baby tomorrow (Lord willing) so I think I’d better go and get some rest.

P.S. If I take a few days to respond.... well, you understand.




Congratulations and blessings to you and yours!
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Post by _Paidion » Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:13 am

Christopher wrote:It seems reasonable to me to say that the “regeneration” He is speaking of here is what occurs when believers receive the Holy Spirit (post-resurrection) upon becoming followers of Christ. Peter and the other disciples were exalted to a place of authority in the church to the degree that we still hold their words as authoritative in the church, even for judging other believers. This would suggest to me that they did receive their reward for faithfully following Jesus.
And what of verse 29 (which you quoted)?

And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.

Instead of receiving a hundred fold in relatives and lands, the leading disciples of the day (with the exception of John), as well as most of the others, received a cruel death at the hands of their enemies.
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:30 am

Instead of receiving a hundred fold in relatives and lands, the leading disciples of the day (with the exception of John), as well as most of the others, received a cruel death at the hands of their enemies.



This is where the rubber meets the road in that if they sleep for 2,000 years then you have a great point but if their spirits are taken to be with the Lord and they reign with Christ during the church age then they already have received a hundredfold.
Really it is not in this life you can receive the hundredfold, i think Jesus meant life with him reigning from heaven.
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