Biblical Stone Causes Stir- Can Someone Please Explain This?

Post by **_TK** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:46 am

I came across this article today:

biblical stone causes stir

i must be missing something- are they suggesting this is somehow damages Christianity, or supports it?

TK

Post by **_Seth** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:43 am

It seems a bit strange that this would generate questions. You could just as well point to predictions of the New Covenant as disproving Jesus as the founder of the New Covenant. Not a new idea, so that's a threat?

Weird.

Post by **_mattrose** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:23 pm

Yeah, the article I read seemed to think it was a point against Christianity. I read the actual finding as a point in favor. We already had the Jonah illustration anyways (him being in the fish 3 days and 3 nights.)

Post by **_JC** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:54 pm

That's one of the strangest pieces of journalism and scholarship I've ever come across. They find an ancient tablet of Hebrew writing that predicts a suffering Messiah will rise from the dead after 3 days... and this is supposed to shatter our perception of Christianity? We need that picture of Yoda saying, "The irony is strong with this one."

I'd say, if authentic, they've stumbled across a genuine prophecy. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot. If the disciples knew of this earlier tradition, they sure did a good job of feigning stupidity. When Jesus told them plainly that he would be killed in Jerusalem and rise 3 days later they didn't even know what he meant.

Also, since the gospel writers like to hit upon seemingly vague prophecies in the OT to prove the writings about Jesus, you'd think they would jump all over something like this. It only makes sense that early Christians were not aware of this tradition, though some Jews were. The most ironic thing, to me, is that it doesn't even matter if they knew about it. What could that possibly prove since they already believed in predictive prophecy?

Post by **_featheredprop** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:47 pm

This could possibly be a"problem" that the stone poses:

Some argue that Jesus did not physically rise from the dead. One counter-argument against that point is that the Jewish idea of resurrection was that of a general resurrection at the end of time - and certainly not of a Messiah who was killed by them. Therefore, the Christian faith was completely new, and ran counter to Jewish thought; which resulted from an experience that the disciples must have had with a risen Jesus.

If the stone tablet is authentic then some will argue that the Christian faith "borrowed" the resurrection motif from a sect of Judaism. Therefore, the disciples did not have to encounter a physically resurrected Jesus to come up with the idea of Christian resurrection - the idea was already floating around.

In my opinion it's not a big problem - it just may make some apologists dig a little deeper ...

peace,

dane

Post by **_JC** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:15 am

Dane, couldn't we just as easily say that the early Christians borrowed this idea of a physical resurrection from Isaiah, Jonah and the Psalms? All Jews were familiar with those books even though the Rabbis interpreted them differently. Paul, for example, was trained in the Pharisee tradition of general resurrection at the end of time. While Paul certainly carried that theme as our great hope, he also believed in a physically resurrected Christ. If the stone is authentic, it would seem to validate a pre-Christian era prophecy about the Christ.

Post by **_Rick_C** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:56 am

An English translation is available @ Parchment & Pen Blog:
(see post 10 by "historic salve")

TIME magazine has comments by Ben Witheringhton III:
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ ... html?imw=Y

Thanks for the link, TK,

We know Jesus spoke to his Jewish contemporaries as a fellow Jew. And in other writings roughly dated to the time Jesus such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, teachings about a "suffering servant" and a "pierced messiah" were present.

Whenever and however the experts unravel the meaning of this stone...I think I'll wait & see what they have to say. Looking the text over in what is available in English; it seems inconclusive. (It kind of seems like Israel Knohl may be 'filling in the blanks' like Dan Brown did on the Da Vinci Code)....

If they decide this stone is genuine; that an actual prediction of a messiah being raised from the dead is there, it wouldn't surprise me! That Era was quite ripe for it, as we know. Thanks

Post by **_Paidion** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:13 pm

The English translation can no longer be found by clicking the link on message 10. However, one can look at the news article about the stone, and a link is given to the English translation. In the translation, I fail to see the things that are supposedly there. I see no indication of the referent of the "three days" phrase. There is so much missing, that I'm wondering how much of the report is simply guess work, or for those who want to find such a message, eisegesis.

Post by **_Homer** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:56 pm

Another article of interest:

[Scholars Downplay Tablet]

Post by **_Rick_C** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:34 pm

The P&P blog link (which I can access) has:

Translation (Semitic sounds in caps andor italics)
Column A
(Lines 1-6 are unintelligible)
7. [… ]the sons of Israel …[…]…
8. […]… […]…
9. [… ]the word of yhw[h …]…[…]
10. […]… Iyou asked …
11. yhwh, you ask me. Thus said the Lord of Hosts:
12. […]… from my(?) house, Israel, and I will tell the greatness(es?) of Jerusalem.
13. [Thus] said yhwh, the Lord of Israel: Behold, all the nations are
14. … against(?) o(?) Jerusalem and …,
15. [o]ne, two, three, fourty(?) prophets(?) and the returners(?),
16. [and] the Hasidin(?). My servant, David, asked from before Ephraim(?)
17. [to?] put the sign(?) I ask from you. Because He said, (namely,)
18. [y]hwh of Hosts, the Lord of Israel: …
19. sanctity(?)sanctify(?) Israel! In three days you shall know, that(?)for(?) He said,
20. (namely,) yhwh the Lord of Hosts, the Lord of Israel: The evil broke (down)
21. before justice. Ask me and I will tell you what this bad plant is,
22. lwbnsd/r/k (=? [To me? in libation?]) you are standing, the messengerangel. He
23. … (= will ordain you?) to Torah(?). Blessed be the Glory of yhwh the Lord, from
24. his seat. “In a little while”, qyTuT (=a brawl? tiny?) it is, “and I will shake the
25. … of? heaven and the earth”. Here is the Glory of yhwh the Lord of
26. Hosts, the Lord of Israel. These are the chariots, seven,
27. [un]to(?) the gate(?) of Jerusalem, and the gates of Judah, and … for the sake of
28. … His(?) angel, Michael, and to all the others(?) askasked
29. …. Thus He said, yhwh the Lord of Hosts, the Lord of
30. Israel: One, two, three, four, five, six,
31. [se]ven, these(?) are(?) His(?) angel …. 'What is it', said the blossom(?)diadem(?)
32. …[…]… and (the?) … (= leader?/ruler?), the second,
33. … Jerusalem…. three, inof the greatness(es?) of
34. […]…[…]…
35. […]…, who saw a man … working(?) and […]…
36. that he … […]… from(?) Jerusalem(?)
37. … on(?) … the exile(?) of …,
38. the exile(?) of …, Lord …, and I will see
39. …[…] Jerusalem, He will say, yhwh of
40. Hosts, …
41. […]… that will lift(?) …
42. […]… in all the
43. […]…
44. […]…
Column B
(Lines 45-50 are unintelligible)
51. Your people(?)with you(?) …[…]
52. … the [me]ssengers(?)[a]ngels(?)[ …]…
53. onagainst His/My people. And …[…]…
54. [… ]three days(?). This is (that) which(?) …[… ]He(?)
55. the Lord(?) hese(?)[ …]…[…]
56. see(?) …[…]
57. closed(?). The blood of the slaughters(?)sacrifices(?) of Jerusalem. For He said,
yhwh of Hos[ts],
58. the Lord of Israel: For He said, yhwh of Hosts, the Lord of
59. Israel: …
60. […]… me(?) the spirit?wind of(?) …
61. …[…]…
62. in it(?) …[…]…[…]
63. …[…]…[…]
64. …[…]… loved(?)/… …[…]
65. The three saints of the worldeternity fromof …[…]
66. […]… peace he? said, toin you we trust(?) …
67. Inform him of the blood of this chariot of them(?) …[…]
68. Many lovers He has, yhwh of Hosts, the Lord of Israel …
69. Thus He said, (namely,) yhwh of Hosts, the Lord of Israel …:
70. Prophets have I sent to my people, three. And I say
71. that I have seen …[…]…
72. the place for the sake of(?) David the servant of yhwh[ …]…[…]
73. the heaven and the earth. Blessed be …[…]
74. men(?). “Showing mercy unto thousands”, … mercy […].
75. Three shepherds went out to?/of? Israel …[…].
76. If there is a priest, if there are sons of saints …[…]
77. Who am I(?), I (am?) Gabri’el the …(=angel?)… […]
78. You(?) will save them, …[…]…
79. from before You, the three si[gn]s(?), three …[….]
80. In three days …, I, Gabri’el …[?],
81. the Prince of Princes, …, narrow holes(?) …[…]…
82. to/for … […]… and the …
83. to me(?), out of three - the small one, whom(?) I took, I, Gabri’el.
84. yhwh of Hosts, the Lord of(?)[ Israel …]…[….]
85. Then you will stand …[…]…
86. …
87. in(?) … eternity(?)/…
___________________________________________________

See also, linked from P&P #16, BAR Special Report, July 8, 2006:
http://bib-arch.org/news/dss-in-stone-news.asp

Have a good nite. I'll be at work,