I Disagree with Evidential Apologetics

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Jason
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I Disagree with Evidential Apologetics

Post by Jason » Sat Aug 29, 2009 2:44 pm

Just listened to the Christopher Hitchens / Willian Lane Craig Debate and it occured to me that evidential apologetics is not that helpful. It seems to me that the Christians in the audience would've thought Craig won easily and the atheists who showed up would've thought Hitchens won. Craig delievered a series of 5 logical arguments (a couple of which I thought were overreaching) and Hitchens spoke rather randomly about various topics, occasionally hitting on a good point, yet not really addressing much of what Craig said. When I listen to these kinds of debates, I'm usually trying to mentally pick apart the Christian's arguments because we sometimes use a line of reasoning that doesn't quite pan out. And I like to identify those.

I think the problem arises when we Christians try to "prove" one thing or another. You can't prove the resurrection or that Jehovah is the uncaused first cause. When it comes to convincing an athiest that a personal God exists, I think only the teleological (design) argument holds any weight. Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins have both gone on record saying this is the ONLY argument that has given them pause. It's also the argument which brought Antony Flew out of his atheism. So I certainly see the merits of this and I can't really find fault with it, even with my skeptic hat on. For this and other reasons, I think this is pretty much the only evidential argument I can say "proves" anythying.

So what do I personally find convincing? If anyone cares to know, it's more the witness of present day Christians and less of first century Christians. Some may find that surprising but I can't argue with credible supernatural stories from people I know aren't superstitious. To deny demon possession, for example, is very hard to do. There are far too many credible reports to deny such activity. And if what we call possession is a mental condition, why does the name of Jesus so often cure it? Put that in a bottle and make some money becuase you've found the cure for mental illness. Likewise, Steve Gregg's own personal story of God's provision is hard to deny. I could understand someone being provided for coincidentally but when it's just the right amount each time - that's impressive! And Steve's story is not entirely unique as there are many more testimonies like his. I have a less impressive testimony regarding financial provision (because my faith needs work) but I have also seen supernatural events in my own life which (for the sake of sane appearance) will remain undetailed. :)

Nevertheless, do you think appealing too much to "scholarly evidence" might actually bite us in the end? Shouldn't we have something a bit better to offer if what we claim is actually true? I welcome anyone to change my opinion.

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mattrose
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Re: I Disagree with Evidential Apologetics

Post by mattrose » Sat Aug 29, 2009 9:34 pm

I think it's important to have Christians in dialogue in all the areas you mentioned (academic, experiential, etc). It's not that anyone will be argued into the kingdom, but a debate like the one you mentioned does have the potential of breaking down a wall in someone that had previously been unwilling to even consider the ongoing life of Jesus of Nazareth.

I few years back I was very much into apologetics as an evangelistic tool. Now I don't really think of it as an evangelistic tool at all. I think of it as a barrier buster (prevenient grace, so to speak).

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darinhouston
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Re: I Disagree with Evidential Apologetics

Post by darinhouston » Sat Aug 29, 2009 11:34 pm

I don't think apologetics is too helpful against the hardened atheist, but for someone who's "on the fence" so to speak, it can remove an objection and help them see the light. I find it most useful, though, for the "toddler" Christian, who needs some encouragement and reinforcement as doubts may creep in.

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Jason
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Re: I Disagree with Evidential Apologetics

Post by Jason » Mon Aug 31, 2009 6:48 am

Thanks, guys - those are good thoughts. I'm not downplaying the role of apologetics, just the tendency to rely as much on evidetialism as the non-believer. The apostles were in a unique position because they could firmly say, "We saw the resurrected Christ that you guys had killed." We can't make those claims. Our audience didn't hand Jesus over to the Romans and we unfortunately were not among the 500 witnesses who saw him in his 40 day resurrection ministry. So what do you say is our most convincing testimony these days? I wish I could say it's the unity of believers!

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Derek
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Re: I Disagree with Evidential Apologetics

Post by Derek » Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:10 pm

Hi Jason,

I would check out presuppositional apologetics. I think that it is the most powerful apologetic there is.

The following article by Michael Butler explains it well and answers critics.

http://butler-harris.org/tag/

There is a great series of lectures by Greg Bahnsen that can be viewed on Youtube explaining it. Just search his name.

I would also recommend the following books:
Van Til's Apologetic: A Reading and Analysis by Greg Bahnsen
Pressing The Antithesis by Greg Bahnsen (taken from the aforementioned video series)

I'm not a Calvinist, but for some reason all of the Presuppers are. I'm not sure why this is aside from the fact that they believe all men know God and have suppressed this knowledge. In other words they interpret Romans 1 in a universal sense. I interpret it that way too and I'm not sure why a non-Calvinist can't.

God bless!!

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Derek
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Re: I Disagree with Evidential Apologetics

Post by Derek » Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:17 pm

Nevertheless, do you think appealing too much to "scholarly evidence" might actually bite us in the end? Shouldn't we have something a bit better to offer if what we claim is actually true? I welcome anyone to change my opinion.
Jason,

I believe that apologetics that is not coupled with a consistently lived, radically Christian worldview in both our personal lives as well as the church is next to worthless. Not to mention the subjective experience of God in the person's heart with whom we're arguing.

God bless,
Derek

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Jason
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Re: I Disagree with Evidential Apologetics

Post by Jason » Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:15 pm

Derek! Where have you been? It's nice to see you posting here again. Thank you for the links... there was a discussion about presuppositional apologetics on an earlier thread, I believe. I've converted to "nice guy apologetics." While I believe my "evidential" arguments are pretty strong, they mean nothing without words of grace. If you come at someone with a hostile or arrogant disposition, you might as well be talking to the wind. I wish more Christians followed the spirit of the scriptures they so arduously defend. Learning to be humble has helped more than anything. I can talk all day to someone I disagree with if they have a gentle spirit. But someone that agrees with me and has an arrogant disposition will have me looking for an exit door. Knowing that I like to be around people that are humble made me realize that I ought to behave likewise.

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Derek
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Re: I Disagree with Evidential Apologetics

Post by Derek » Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:36 am

Hey Brother,

Thanks. Good to be back! I caught everyone one up a bit in the Courtyard forum. Just "been down the road and back" a bit as they say.

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anochria
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Re: I Disagree with Evidential Apologetics

Post by anochria » Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:51 pm

I don't share your skepticism with evidential apologetics (and I've always found presuppositional apologetics to be annoyingly circular in it's reasoning), but I do agree that evidentialism runs into problems with it focused on "proving". Instead, the goal of evidentialism should be more modest: to demonstrate that Christianity is rational, warranted, and a solid conclusion in the light of a preponderance of the evidence.

Also, in years of apologetics ministry I have been constantly amazed at what "style" or "approach" reached who. I think we want to figure it out ahead of time in order to pre-package our delivery, but people have a tendency to break the mold. I think each of us would do best to approach apologetics with a focus on the individual needs of the hearers.
Pastor Josh Coles, Aletheia Christian Fellowship
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roblaine
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Re: I Disagree with Evidential Apologetics

Post by roblaine » Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:47 pm

I think I agree with you to a point Josh (anochria), but your apparent distaste for Presuppositional Apologetics may be misguided. I think that the manner in which each approach is taken will determine how effective one will be. One also must take into account the personality of the individual they are taking to, and determine which approach may be most effective. I recently read a book where both Presuppositional Apologetics along with Evidential Apologetics were used to convert an avid atheist. I think I mentioned this to you before, but the book contains letters written between a father and son (Gregory Boyd, and Edward Boyd). Greg Boyd employs both tactics in his attempt to convert his father, but it seemed that the most convincing arguments came from his Presuppositional approach. At least it appeared that way from the responses from his father. I do recommend the book for anyone who enjoys apologetics. The title is "Letters From a Skeptic", By Gregory Boyd, and his father Edward Boyd. Its a fairly easy and quick read, but it is packed with some of the best arguments if favor of the existence of God, and the reliability of the Gospels that I have ever read. It’s also a very touching and emotional book.
It matters little where a man may be at this moment; the point is whether he is growing.
-George MacDonald

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