Starlight & Time

[Guest]

Steve,

Have you heard Dr. Russell Humphreyes proposed theory on why we can see starlight from stars millions of light years away if the universe is young? It is pretty complex, but involves the universe passing beyond the event horizon of a white hole while the earth remained inside. Thus, for the distant universe billions of years were passing while God was measuring the creative days by EST (earth standard time).

Russell assumes from the start that the earth is bounded and, therefore, has a center. In this view, the 'waters above' is not our atmosphere or some past vapor canopy, but is actually the current 'edge/boundary' of the universe too distant for us to observe today. This seems to make some sense Biblically since the stars are placed in the expanse b/w the waters above and the waters below.

Do you have a view on starlight and time? I know many hold that the universe was created mature. Others say the speed of light has decreased. I appreciated Dr. Humphreyes theory because it was not stated dogmatically and it let Scripture dictate it's boundaries.

In Christ,
Matthew

[Guest]

Hi Matt,

I had never heard this theory, and if I did, it probably would have gone over my head. It's interesting to hear another explanation.

I am a young-earth creationist, but, for two reasons, I have never felt too concerned about defending the age of the earth or of the universe.

First, because I think acknowledgement of God as Creator is so much more important than knowing the details of creation—or even than determining whether Genesis 1 is literal or not— that it doesn't bother me in the least to meet an "old-earth creationist."

Second, because there are too many undiscoverable variables (at least undiscoverable to someone with my limited grasp of the natural sciences) that may factor into the question of the age of things. Among the possibilities that, I think, could turn out to be true (but which we may never know) would be:

1) Genesis 1 may be a poetic (non-literal) description of the creation, and Genesis 2 a more literal description;

2) The speed of light and of the decay of radioactive elements may not always have been constant throughout cosmic history, and, if they were more rapid in the past, they may have produced the observed results in a shorter time than we think;

3) The universe may have been created "mature" or "functional," which would give it the appearance of having been around longer than it really has been (this is the theory that I have always inclined to);

4) The earth may be flat and the stars a few miles overhead, and all the conspiring scientists are really lying (just kidding!);

5) The clause, "He made the stars also" (Gen.1:16) may be parenthetical, mentioned out of chronological sequence, referring to an event that occurred much earlier—allowing the universe to be aeons old, but the rest of the creative acts described in Genesis 1 to have occurred only a few thousand years ago;

6) Humphreyes' theory may be correct;

7) Some as yet unformed theory may arise that explains it all...

My understanding of science is rudimentary, but foundational enough that, coupled with adequate reasoning powers, I can fairly deduce that the evidence around us—including all that which is put forward by evolutionists—in no sense can be made to prove that evolution is even plausible without intelligent direction.

Additionally, the character of the fossil record declares that, even if evolution were plausible, it apparently has never occurred—unless the geological column was not let in on the secret—living things appear in the strata in the wrong order for evolution, and there are no indisputable transitional species preserved in the fossil beds.

That there was an intelligent, purposeful Designer is the postulate to which most evidence points, and which no evidence can debunk.

That this Designer has revealed Himself to mankind in the earliest ages of human history, specially to the ancient people of Israel, and especially in the person of Jesus Christ are not only good guesses, but the very best conclusions a reasoning and honest mind can reach by consideration of available evidences.

Whether this Creator put everything together thousands or billions of years ago is secondary to the point of inconsequential to me. On the whole, however, it seems the available evidence that has come to my attention favors the younger earth view.

[Guest]

Thanks for the reply Steve

I do not have a problem with the 'old earth' view either except for when it puts death before the fall, which, most usually, it does in my observation.

Also, I wanted you to know I enjoyed your discussion about the spiritual significance of the creation week that you mentioned on your show last week. I really enjoy your show and listen to it many nights while i'm falling asleep (not that it's boring!). I especially like that is has no commercials and I'm planning on supporting your ministry financially in the near future.

God bless,
matthew

[Guest]

Thanks for the encouragement!

[Guest]

Steve,

Have you heard Dr. Russell Humphreyes proposed theory on why we can see starlight from stars millions of light years away if the universe is young? It is pretty complex, but involves the universe passing beyond the event horizon of a white hole while the earth remained inside. Thus, for the distant universe billions of years were passing while God was measuring the creative days by EST (earth standard time).

Russell assumes from the start that the earth is bounded and, therefore, has a center. In this view, the 'waters above' is not our atmosphere or some past vapor canopy, but is actually the current 'edge/boundary' of the universe too distant for us to observe today. This seems to make some sense Biblically since the stars are placed in the expanse b/w the waters above and the waters below.

Do you have a view on starlight and time? I know many hold that the universe was created mature. Others say the speed of light has decreased. I appreciated Dr. Humphreyes theory because it was not stated dogmatically and it let Scripture dictate it's boundaries.

In Christ,
Matthew

There is apparently a significant flaw in Humphries' mathematical calculations. These are beyond my abilities, but for those so inclined, are described here:
http://www.serve.com/herrmann/hump.htm

[Guest]

I do not have a problem with the 'old earth' view either except for when it puts death before the fall, which, most usually, it does in my observation.


IMHO Adam's sin allowed death to pass to humankind but the rest of creation was already suceptable to death because sin existed through Satan already and the rest of creation was'nt made in the image of God. Even in the young earth scenerio there still would have been microscopic death of bacteria or plants or insects before Adam sinned.

[Guest]

Anything is possible of course but for God to have created the universe already mature is a lot more involved then just creating stars with light already reaching the earth. There are stars at different stages of exploding , dwarf stars in the process of dying which take around 10 billion years which create florine which eventually reached us as dust clouds and was a precurser to protein a building block of life.
Of course God can do anything but i think He follows His own laws of nature and physics as a rule.

[Guest]

Humphreys theory does not suggest a universe created mature, it suggests an old universe and a young earth b/c gravity distorts time

[Guest]

Of course God can do anything but i think He follows His own laws of nature and physics as a rule.

I don't know, I think by stopping the earth from turning for 24 hours without sending everything instantly flying 1000mph had to defy some law of centrifugal force or something. (Josh 10:13). Breaking the laws of nature and physics seems to be what physical miracles are all about.

[Guest]

I once heard it said that in performing physical miracles, God does not "break" the physical laws of the Universe. Rather He transcends them.

That also seems to be the case with "spiritual" miracles:

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. Romans 8:2