Elijah and Enoch ascended to heaven?

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Elijah and Enoch ascended to heaven?

Post by _Anonymous » Sat Dec 31, 2005 8:22 pm

"And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." (2 Kings 2:11)

"No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, ... the Son of Man." (John 3:13)

I think I may have found an answer.
Most Christians commonly assume that the Bible shows the prophets Enoch and Elijah as having been translated to heaven back in their times and that they are now living with Christ and God the Father (II Kings 2:1,11; Hebrews 11:5). The fact is, this creates a contradiction, so I don't think that the bible teaches that these two prophets are now in heaven.

Do we not read in the Scripture that Enoch did not die and that Elijah was transported into heaven? Let us first look at the matter of Elijah. The verse that makes some people thing that Elijah was taken into heaven where God lives is II Kings 2:11. This describes the scene when Elijah departed from his successor Elisha. It says: "And it came to pass, as they still went on and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." From this, it has been surmised by many people that Elijah was taken to God’s throne in heaven and has remained there alive ever since. This might not be true.

The fact is, there are three usages of the word ‘heaven’ in the Bible. One is where the birds gly and the clouds exist (that is, our atmosphere) (Genesis 1:20). The second is where all the heavenly bodies are (Genesis 1:14-17). And the third is, indeed, the very region where God himself resides. This is even called "the third heaven" by apostle Paul (II Corinthians 12:1,2). Was it "the third heaven" into which Elijah was taken? I don't think it was. We even have the express teaching of Christ himself that no one (man or woman) has ever ascended into the heaven where God resides. "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven" (John 3:13). This means that Elijah (who lived almost 900 years before the birth of Christ) could not have gone into the heaven in which God has his residence. He simply went upwards into the heavens where the birds fly and the clouds exist and was transferred to another location on earth.

Such a circumstance concerning Elijah was even anticipated by those who lived in Elijah’s time and knew him personally. A righteous man by the name of Obadiah told Elijah that he believed God would cause "the Spirit of YHVH to carry thee whither I know not where" (I Kings 18:12). This shows that the power of Elijah to be transported by the Spirit from one place on earth to another was already recognized as possible by the people who lived at the time. And when Elijah handed over power to his successor, Elisha, he was indeed transported through the air out of the central area of Palestine into the kingdom of Judah in the south (II Kings 2:11). Elijah only went into the "first heaven" (the atmosphere of the earth), and not into outer space or the heaven of God’s throne. This is made clear in the scripture because about seven years later we find Elijah still on earth (but this time living in Judah) writing a letter to the King of Judah (II Chronicles 21:12). So Elijah continued to live on earth.

Elijah was simply taken miraculously through the air to a location in southern Judah. The prophet Ezekiel experienced the same phenomenon in his day (Ezekiel 3:12-14) and even the evangelist Philip was similarly transported bodily through the air from a spot near Gaza to the city of Azotus a few miles away (Acts 8:39,40). Thus, Elijah was not taken to the heaven where God lived. The prophet died a few years after his "transfer" and is awaiting his resurrection from the dead (like all the saints of old).

Now what about Enoch? The answer is much the same. The apostle Paul in the Book of Hebrews says this about Enoch: "By faith Enoch was translated [Greek: transferred] him: for before his translation he had this testimony that he pleased God" (Hebrews 11:5). Notice that Paul did not say Enoch did not die. He simply said he was transferred by God to a place where no death could be seen. Where was that place? The answer is plain but it may be a surprise to some people. Enoch was transferred into the Garden of Eden which remained on earth until the Flood. This was the place where God had His presence (Genesis 3:8; 4:16). This was a place where anyone taken into the Garden could talk to God face to face as the word "presence" signifies.

It was in the Garden that God was accustomed to walk in the cool of the day (Genesis 3:8). Now note this point. This Scripture says that two men were able to "walk WITH GOD" and these were Enoch and Noah (Genesis 5:22-24; 6:9), while later men such as Abraham were able to "walk BEFORE GOD" (Genesis 17:1). It was only ‘in the midst of the Garden" that God walked, and to "walk with God’ meant that Enoch was transferred into the Garden where he stayed in a permanent way in God’s presence until his death. Noah was also permitted to "walk with God’ in the Garden in Eden, but he was also allowed to leave in order to build the ark.

Thus, Enoch at the age of 365 was not found in human society any longer. As the Scripture says: "He was not; for God took him [transferred him in the Garden]." Where, as Paul said, "he should not see death" (Hebrews 11:5). Paul was not saying that Enoch would not die. He simply meant that Enoch was taken to a place where no death could be seen. And while in the Garden no death was seen. The same occurs in the New Jerusalem where it says’ there shall be no more death’ (Revelation 21:4). But Enoch did die (maybe near the time when the Garden ceased at the Flood) because Paul said "these ALL DIED" (Hebrews 11:13, and this obviously (as the context shows) including Enoch. This means that both Enoch and Elijah are like all other men. Both are dead and awaiting the resurrection at the second advent of Christ.


I think this is very possible and clears up a "alledged" contradiction some think they've found in the bible. Thoughts, anyone?
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Post by _Paidion » Sat Dec 31, 2005 11:37 pm

Would the term "not see death" have the same meaning that you suggested in the following passages?

Luke 2:26 And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord’s Christ.

John 8:51 "Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death."
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Post by _mattrose » Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:34 pm

It's been about a year since I read this post and I was just reminded of it. I am wondering if anyone else has any thoughts on whether Enoch/Elijah died or not. I think the guest poster made some pretty decent arguments (especially if Elijah wrote a letter after this 'whirlwind' experience.
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Post by _Paidion » Wed Dec 20, 2006 12:11 am

I forget who it was, but one of the second century Christians wrote the Enoch and Elijah did not die. They remained in their mortal bodies which God is preserving until the day when they shall return again as the two witnesses of Revelation, and then be killed.

It had never previously entered my mind that god may be keeping them alive by preserving their bodies until that day.
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Post by _Ely » Wed Dec 20, 2006 9:22 am

Interesting stuff. His points concering Elijah are very strong, especially if it can be proved that the letter was defintely sent after he had been taken.

He was on slightly more shakey ground concerning Enoch not "seeing death." The phraseis used in Psalm 89:48 where it is explicitly connected with the idea of dying:

48 What man can live and not see death?
Can he deliver his life from the power of the grave?


Luke 2:26 definitely has the same idea. John 8:51-52 is a bit more layered. But was Jesus saying that if anyone would keep his words that they would not see any death around them? Don't think so.

But then even if Enoch didn't see death and was still alive in the first century (and today), that doesn't mean that he has to be in heaven. One of the witnesses perhaps (no, not Kingdom Hall people!).
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Post by _TK » Wed Dec 20, 2006 12:41 pm

i guess i am a little confused perhaps-- but do some people say that Enoch and Elija are still alive on the earth today? if so, where do they hang out? i'd like to meet them. they must have really long beards by now.

TK
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Post by _Ely » Wed Dec 20, 2006 3:09 pm

TK wrote:i guess i am a little confused perhaps-- but do some people say that Enoch and Elija are still alive on the earth today? if so, where do they hang out? i'd like to meet them. they must have really long beards by now.

TK
Maybe even longer than Paidion's!


Maybe not.
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Post by _mattrose » Wed Dec 20, 2006 9:08 pm

TK wrote:i guess i am a little confused perhaps-- but do some people say that Enoch and Elija are still alive on the earth today? if so, where do they hang out? i'd like to meet them. they must have really long beards by now.

TK
No, i don't think anyone says that :)

I've run across a number of people who say that they didn't NOT die
Instead, they say they were simply transported to another area and later died
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Post by _Paidion » Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:40 pm

guess i am a little confused perhaps-- but do some people say that Enoch and Elija are still alive on the earth today? if so, where do they hang out? i'd like to meet them. they must have really long beards by now.
What I said was that some of the early Christians said that God preserved them so that they wouldn't die. They didn't say that this was on earth. We don't know the location. They didn't even say whether or not they are conscious. Perhaps they are in a state of suspended animation. But they did state that they would be the two witnesses in Revelation, and would be put to death at that time by their enemies, as is recorded in Revelation.

P.S. I know nothing about the status of their beards.
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Post by _mattrose » Wed Dec 27, 2006 11:37 pm

Interestingly, I was just reading Josephus' account of the life/death of Elijah. At the end of book 11, he states:

It was in the reign of Jehoram that Elijah disappeared from among men, and to this day no one knows what happened to him. A disciple named Elisha succeeded him. But in reference to Elijah and Enoch, the sacred books state that they became invisible, and no one knows how they died.
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Hemingway once said: 'The world is a fine place and worth fighting for'

I agree with the second part (se7en)

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