Why is the Universe so infinitly large?

_Roger
Posts: 125
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 4:15 am
Location: Albany, Oregon

Post by _Roger » Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:50 pm

Paidion...I agree with you that evolution is an absolutely rediculous theory but I fail to see why the "Gap " theory is judged by you to be ludicrous. Give me your reasons for saying this please.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:

User avatar
_Allyn
Posts: 422
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 1:56 pm
Location: Nebraska

Post by _Allyn » Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:53 pm

Sabbath is also shown to be a time of rest for the believer. A lasting time. I know that Hebrews addresses it in those kind of terms. So most likely this is what is behind the whole meaning of Sabbath where ever it is used throughout the Bible IMO. It was termed as entering into His rest.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:

User avatar
_Derek
Posts: 291
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 12:27 am
Location: Marietta GA

Post by _Derek » Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:15 pm

Allyn wrote:Sabbath is also shown to be a time of rest for the believer. A lasting time. I know that Hebrews addresses it in those kind of terms. So most likely this is what is behind the whole meaning of Sabbath where ever it is used throughout the Bible IMO. It was termed as entering into His rest.
Hey Allyn,
I agree with what you are saying about the Sabbath, but regardless of the greater meaning behind it, in the context of Exodus 20:11 it is talking about the literal 7th day of the literal week. That's my only point, that God said He made the Heavens and the Earth and Sea and all that are in them in 6 days. Not six billion years. He says "six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work, but the seventh day..." from verses 8-11 there's really no other way to look at it but a literal week. I see the spiritual meaning behind it, and I guess that's a huge reason why He set things up that way, (to forshadow rest from works of the law and enter into His rest), but that doesn't change the fact that He's speaking of a literal week in this context.
God bless,
Derek
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:

User avatar
_thrombomodulin
Posts: 67
Joined: Sun May 01, 2005 2:32 pm
Location: Ypsilanti, MI, USA

Post by _thrombomodulin » Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:39 pm

Steve7150 wrote: Yes the starting and stopping points may be arbitrary but it still added up to 24 hours and if you believe in a literal 24 hours per creation day then to be consistent you should take the evening and morning 12 hour description literally and therein lies a problem since God inspired Moses to write in this way. Interestingly this description is not used on the 7th day when God rested and did'nt create implying that this is a poetic description of a creation process IMHO.
Perhaps I am missing something obvious, but I am not seeing the problem, could you please explain a little more? If then timeline was morning, and then 12 hours later evening, and then 12 hours later still morning again, then there was a 24 hour period. This is one day ; a period from morning to morning. Thus, a literal 24 hour period, a literal morning, and a literal evening exist without contradiction.
Derek wrote: In neither case do we have to say that it, (His glory), didn't exist before right?
Thanks for your reply, I guess I have been thinking that when God says 'Let there be X and there was X' that this is indicating a Ex Nihilo creative act. I do know that the word 'bara' is used in this verse, and that some would assert that this means "out of nothing". For example, on another thread Steve7150 noted "Gleason Archer says 'bara' means to create out of nothing which is different then 'asah' which is to bring forth." I have not learned Hebrew, but still I would like to know how Mr. Archer reached this conclusion (If anyone knows please comment).

Regarding Ex 20:11, I agree that the context presents the words for day as equivalent. If the same word can have different meanings in the same context and the same sentence, then it would seem to have grave implications about our ability to be certain of our understanding of scripture.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:

_STEVE7150
Posts: 894
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:38 pm

Post by _STEVE7150 » Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:15 pm

Throm wrote ,Perhaps I am missing something obvious, but I am not seeing the problem, could you please explain a little more? If then timeline was morning, and then 12 hours later evening, and then 12 hours later still morning again, then there was a 24 hour period. This is one day ; a period from morning to morning. Thus, a literal 24 hour period, a literal morning, and a literal evening exist without contradiction. >
Gen 1.13 "There was evening and there was morning , a third day."
This expression would literally be 12 hours since nothing else is said and it is used to desribe the first 6 days. It's not used on the 7th day when no creation takes place therefore i'm deducing that it's connected to the creation process.

With regards to Exodus 20.11 as we know "yom" can mean 24 hour days and for man his resting on the Sabbath is a picture or symbolic of God's working for HIS six days and resting on HIS 7th day IMHO. But God's 7th day never ended since on the other 6 there is a definitive end but no end for day 7 is mentioned. Therefore since God rested from his creative process and still does (we can enter into God's rest) the 7th day could'nt be 24 hours and if it isn't why would the other days be 24 hours.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:

User avatar
_Derek
Posts: 291
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 12:27 am
Location: Marietta GA

Ex. 20:11

Post by _Derek » Sat Jan 14, 2006 2:12 am

Hey Steve7150,
The way I see this is that God, is in Ex. 20, giving His law to man in terms man could understand. He tells man "<b>six days shalt thou</b> labor and do all thy work: But the seventh day etc....for in <b>six days the Lord</b> made heaven and earth, the sea and all that in them is, and rested on the seventh day..." Are you saying that God is speaking of the first six and seventh days literally and then in the next breath talking about billions of years? Can you show how you understand this? Maybe I am just being hard-headed :lol: but it looks to me that God is speaking of both sets of days directly in contrast to one another. How does the context allow for one set to be literal and the other figurative?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:

User avatar
_Paidion
Posts: 944
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:42 pm
Location: Chapple, Ontario

Post by _Paidion » Sat Jan 14, 2006 11:27 am

A convincing point, Derek!
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald

_STEVE7150
Posts: 894
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:38 pm

Post by _STEVE7150 » Sat Jan 14, 2006 2:25 pm

Hey Steve7150,
The way I see this is that God, is in Ex. 20, giving His law to man in terms man could understand. He tells man "six days shalt thou labor and do all thy work: But the seventh day etc....for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea and all that in them is, and rested on the seventh day..." Are you saying that God is speaking of the first six and seventh days literally and then in the next breath talking about billions of years? Can you show how you understand this? Maybe I am just being hard-headed but it looks to me that God is speaking of both sets of days directly in contrast to one another. How does the context allow for one set to be literal and the other figurative?


Hi Derek, Well then if we must take everything God says literally than i guess the Israelites were in the wilderness only 8 days and not 40 years since God set up the Feast of Tabernacles as an 8 day celebration to SYMBOLIZE the 40 years in the wilderness.
IMO God gave us his scripture which is true and that same scripture
tells us "the heavens declare the righteousness of God" and tells us "He is continually stretching out the heavens" Psalm 19.
So if the heavens declare God and science and nature (which God gave us) tell us by sophisticated measuring techniques that the universe is 14 billion years old and started with a big bang we have 2 choices.
Choice A- God created an illusion of age to fool us into believing something that's not true. This would be an ellaborate illusion because now there are several methods to measure the age of the universe not just by the time it takes light to reach us from a star.
Choice-B God knew at some point man would develop the technology to measure the age of the universe and therefore used the word "yom" to allow us to conclude at some point when necessary that the days of creation were each epochs as the word "yom" allows for.
Btw even if the universe is 14 billion years old it does'nt allow enough time for natural macro-evolution to really have occured which is so slow and complex trillions of years would be needed.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:

User avatar
_thrombomodulin
Posts: 67
Joined: Sun May 01, 2005 2:32 pm
Location: Ypsilanti, MI, USA

Post by _thrombomodulin » Sat Jan 14, 2006 3:10 pm

Steve7150 wrote:This expression would literally be 12 hours since nothing else is said and it is used to desribe the first 6 days.
The Hebrew words are something very much like the following:

[creative activity], And was evening, and was morning, one day.
[creative activity], And was evening, and was morning, second day.
[creative activity], And was evening, and was morning, third day.
[creative activity], And was evening, and was morning. fourth day.
[creative activity], And was evening, and was morning, fifth day.
[creative activity], And was evening, and was morning, sixth day.
[end of activity], And finished , God, on day, the seventh.

The KJV translates the words as "And the evening and the morning were the X'th day". This would imply that the evening and morning actually were being defined to be the X'th day.

The NASB, however, follows the Hebrew more closely: "And there was evening and there was morning, one day." This translation of the words is merely stating the passage or completion of successive events. It is not defining the word day to be the evening morning interval.

So which reading is correct? I do not know Hebrew, but IMO the NASB rendering makes more sense because:
1) Defining the word day as evening to morning, is tantamount to defining the word to mean night. This is contradictory to 1:5 where God named the light to be day and the darkness night, and this is outside the semantic range of the word.
2) The days seem to be presented in a continuous series; for there are not 12 creation days, but rather only 6 days covering the 144 hour period.
Steve7150 wrote:Interestingly this description is not used on the 7th day when God rested and did'nt create implying that this is a poetic description of a creation process IMHO.
I think your position is that the absence of the evening/morning phrase on day seven is a strong indication that the seventh day continues to the present, and so the days are not 24 hours. However, if one accepts the view that the word day does indeed mean the interval from 'evening to morning' (12 hour or otherwise) then this would present a problem. The reason is that logical consistency would seem to require the conclusion that the absence of 'evening' is strong evidence that the seventh day hasn't yet begun! However, we know that the seventh day did actually begin, for God rested on it in the past. Thus, since the absence of the word evening does not indicate the seventh day did not begin, it cannot be said the absence of the word morning indicates the day did not end.

Best Regards,
Pete
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:

User avatar
_Derek
Posts: 291
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 12:27 am
Location: Marietta GA

Post by _Derek » Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:38 pm

STEVE7150 wrote:
Hi Derek, Well then if we must take everything God says literally than i guess the Israelites were in the wilderness only 8 days and not 40 years since God set up the Feast of Tabernacles as an 8 day celebration to SYMBOLIZE the 40 years in the wilderness.


Hey Steve7150,
I didn't say we had to take everything God says literally. I personally don't take everything literally. However in this passage about the feast
He says "Ye shall dwell in booths seven days: all that are Israelites born shall dwell in booths: that your generations may know that I made the children of Israel dwell in booths when I brought them out of Egypt:..." He doesn't say "you shall dwell in booth seven days so that everyone shall know that you dwelt in the wilderness 40 years." But this sentence is structured not unlike the six days verse in Ex. 20. He there says " Six days shalt thou labour etc...for in six days the Lord etc..."
In the above mentioned passage He says "you shall <b>dwell in booths</b>...will know that I made Israel to <b>dwell in booths</b>. It's the same kind of thing. Dwelling in booths in mentioned twice, both times talking about the same thing. Six days in mentioned twice speaking both times of six normal days. I haven't studied all the passages relating to the feast of Tabernacles so maybe I'm missing something...

science and nature (which God gave us) tell us by sophisticated measuring techniques that the universe is 14 billion years old and started with a big bang we have 2 choices.


"Science" its self <b>does not</b> tell us this, only the <b>opinions</b> of certain scientists who approach the evidence given by "nature" through an atheistic, naturalist worldview. There are plenty of brilliant scientists that hold to the YEC position. It may very well be that the majority of scientists believe the earth is 14billion years old, but they also do not believe in God either. The Bible blatantly contradicts both of these (majority) opinions. We do not have to go with the majority on one issue any more than the other.
God bless,
Derek
P.S. I have to go for now. I am not ignoring your other points. :D
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:

Post Reply

Return to “Christian Evidences & Challenges”