Christianity: Performance-Based?
Christianity: Performance-Based?
Mr. Gregg: What are your thoughts on Christianity and our "performance." How it impacts us, etc., etc.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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I haven't read Denny's book, but I have been acquainted with with his ministry, through friends, for several years, and have heard some of his tapes. He screams a lot in his preaching, though he often is saying things good enough to have sufficient impact without the excessive volume. He has some convictions which are more restrictive than mine, including mandatory head coverings for women, and absolutely no remarriage after divorce, under any circumstances.
What I have heard from those who know him is that he is personally gracious, but that those who sit under his teaching are often very legalistic (come to think of it, I have heard people say similar things about myself!). I have met many who have lived in his community in Pennsylvania, and have never, as a consequence, wished that I could live there.
Performance figures into my Christian life in precisely the way that my children's performance figures into their relationship with me: Poor performance is not particularly surprising, when they are young and immature, but disappointing when they are old enough to do well and don't. Nonetheless, their performance, good or bad, has no impact upon my love toward, commitment to, or acceptance of them. Isn't that how all fathers are? That's what I think the New testament reveals about God.
What I have heard from those who know him is that he is personally gracious, but that those who sit under his teaching are often very legalistic (come to think of it, I have heard people say similar things about myself!). I have met many who have lived in his community in Pennsylvania, and have never, as a consequence, wished that I could live there.
Performance figures into my Christian life in precisely the way that my children's performance figures into their relationship with me: Poor performance is not particularly surprising, when they are young and immature, but disappointing when they are old enough to do well and don't. Nonetheless, their performance, good or bad, has no impact upon my love toward, commitment to, or acceptance of them. Isn't that how all fathers are? That's what I think the New testament reveals about God.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
Bro. Steve:
Thank you for the reply. The father-son analogy was helpful.
I didn't want to give the impression, though, that I was referring to Bro. Denny & Co., when I spoke of "performance-based." I sincerely think that those folks are trying to be delivered from a "performance" mentality. This is evident in one article in their "Heartbeat of the Remnant" magazine a few years back (May/June 2002). The article was entitled "I am living under the Law [if]..." The main thrust of the article was on our "performance," and various unhealthy mentalities associated with it. The first "if" of the article was "If I feel condemned and worry whether I am performing well enough to satisfy God." The précis of the first point was that there are those who do not yet understand that Jesus is our righteousness (1 Cor. 1:30). During Jesus' baptism God spoke from heaven saying that Jesus was the only one who completely pleased the Father. My own works and "performance" will never please God, but when He sees His Son in me, He is "well pleased." Trying to please God on my own and apart from abiding in Christ will end in a frustrating impossiblity. When the Spirit convicts me of a need in my life, I cannot "try harder" and sanctify myself by improving my "performance." Jesus is my sanctification. I cannot attain God's standard by my own sheer willpower. I need Jesus to strengthen me. Amen? True faith is the starting point if I want God to be pleased with me (Romans 4:3; Heb. 11:6).
John 15:4 -- "As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me" That verse sums up, I guess, what I am trying to say. If you "get" the root (abiding in Christ), you will always "get" the fruit. If you don't "get" fruit in your life, you can safely conclude that you never "got" the root. Do you follow me? Am I following myself? Please ignore my poor grammar.
Anyway, another point of the article explained another mentality: there are those who serve God only to avoid hell. That shows that we want to "perform" well enough to simply be accepted, instead of focusing on an inner relationship with God ("knowing" Jesus). If I truly recognize God's holiness, I will serve Him because He is worthy, and the rewards He offers for that faithful service will merely be side-benefits - not the main focus. Still others, the article goes on, teach and demand of others things not found in the Bible. This reveals another performance-oriented mentality that does not accept God's standard of inward holiness and claims that righteousness depends on keeping certain man-made rules. Eventually, those same rules often replace God's standard, and people are considered righteousness as long as they simply conform outwardly to these rules. That is true legalism. I have seen a sickening number of churches fall by the wayside because of it. A holy life must flow from within, just like sin originates from within. (Mark 7:21)
The article had this ending quote: "I am living above the law in grace when I truly understand and experience that a transformed heart naturally produces good works, but good works never produce a transformed heart." This article is excellent for anyone combating "performance-based" thinkers, and I encourage everyone to check it out. http://www.charityministries.org/download.cfm It also addresses the "other" end of the spectrum (i.e. "Antinomians" (spelling??) - my works don't really matter, "grace" gives me permission to live lawlessly).
Further, Mr. Kenaston points out in his latest "Godly Home" tape series that one goal in child training is to get them to obey you out of love for you. The child shouldn't obey out of fear, or pain, but because they want to please us. The same goes, I think, for us and our heavenly Father.
Steve: I am familiar with the "Charity" movement's position on divorce/remarriage, and it is saddening. Although, like you mentioned, I've heard that Denny himself is somewhat sypathetic.
Other brothers & sisters are welcomed to join in on this discussion.
In the name of Jesus, agape,
loaves
Thank you for the reply. The father-son analogy was helpful.
I didn't want to give the impression, though, that I was referring to Bro. Denny & Co., when I spoke of "performance-based." I sincerely think that those folks are trying to be delivered from a "performance" mentality. This is evident in one article in their "Heartbeat of the Remnant" magazine a few years back (May/June 2002). The article was entitled "I am living under the Law [if]..." The main thrust of the article was on our "performance," and various unhealthy mentalities associated with it. The first "if" of the article was "If I feel condemned and worry whether I am performing well enough to satisfy God." The précis of the first point was that there are those who do not yet understand that Jesus is our righteousness (1 Cor. 1:30). During Jesus' baptism God spoke from heaven saying that Jesus was the only one who completely pleased the Father. My own works and "performance" will never please God, but when He sees His Son in me, He is "well pleased." Trying to please God on my own and apart from abiding in Christ will end in a frustrating impossiblity. When the Spirit convicts me of a need in my life, I cannot "try harder" and sanctify myself by improving my "performance." Jesus is my sanctification. I cannot attain God's standard by my own sheer willpower. I need Jesus to strengthen me. Amen? True faith is the starting point if I want God to be pleased with me (Romans 4:3; Heb. 11:6).
John 15:4 -- "As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me" That verse sums up, I guess, what I am trying to say. If you "get" the root (abiding in Christ), you will always "get" the fruit. If you don't "get" fruit in your life, you can safely conclude that you never "got" the root. Do you follow me? Am I following myself? Please ignore my poor grammar.
Anyway, another point of the article explained another mentality: there are those who serve God only to avoid hell. That shows that we want to "perform" well enough to simply be accepted, instead of focusing on an inner relationship with God ("knowing" Jesus). If I truly recognize God's holiness, I will serve Him because He is worthy, and the rewards He offers for that faithful service will merely be side-benefits - not the main focus. Still others, the article goes on, teach and demand of others things not found in the Bible. This reveals another performance-oriented mentality that does not accept God's standard of inward holiness and claims that righteousness depends on keeping certain man-made rules. Eventually, those same rules often replace God's standard, and people are considered righteousness as long as they simply conform outwardly to these rules. That is true legalism. I have seen a sickening number of churches fall by the wayside because of it. A holy life must flow from within, just like sin originates from within. (Mark 7:21)
The article had this ending quote: "I am living above the law in grace when I truly understand and experience that a transformed heart naturally produces good works, but good works never produce a transformed heart." This article is excellent for anyone combating "performance-based" thinkers, and I encourage everyone to check it out. http://www.charityministries.org/download.cfm It also addresses the "other" end of the spectrum (i.e. "Antinomians" (spelling??) - my works don't really matter, "grace" gives me permission to live lawlessly).
Further, Mr. Kenaston points out in his latest "Godly Home" tape series that one goal in child training is to get them to obey you out of love for you. The child shouldn't obey out of fear, or pain, but because they want to please us. The same goes, I think, for us and our heavenly Father.
Steve: I am familiar with the "Charity" movement's position on divorce/remarriage, and it is saddening. Although, like you mentioned, I've heard that Denny himself is somewhat sypathetic.
Other brothers & sisters are welcomed to join in on this discussion.
In the name of Jesus, agape,
loaves
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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It is wise to be a bit cautious concerning our understanding of this. I think Paul was simply saying that Jesus is the source of our righteousness. It seems that the phrase "A is B" in the Greek language did not necessarily identify A with B, as we do in modern English....do not yet understand that Jesus is our righteousness (1 Cor. 1:30).
For example, we read that "God is love". Does that mean that love is the essence of God? Is he 100% love? It is also written "God is spirit."
What essentially is He? love? or spirit?
In my opinion, "God is love" means that God is the source of love.
The idea that Jesus righteousness is somehow a substitute for actual rightousness on our part, is dangerous. It is said that when God looks at his children, He no longer sees their sin, but Christ's righteousness.
I don't think so! God sees and knows everything about us.
This kind of thinking is used to excuse sinful behaviour. Dangerous!
Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7
For he will render to everyone according to his works: to those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth, but are persuaded by wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.
Affliction and anguish for every person who does evil ... but glory and honour and well-being for every one who does good ... For God shows no partiality. Romans 2:6-11
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
What do you think Jesus meant in John 15:4 regarding "fruit"? There are many unbelievers who do many kind and loving things; they're apparently not part of the vine. According to Jesus they can not produce good fruit.
Could the answer be that the fruit is the same but is only good if it is done in such a way as to bring glory to God (Matthew 5:16)? Another thought that would seem to fit well with the context of John 15 - 17 is that the fruit Jesus is speaking of is how Christians treat one another. This also fits with my understanding Matthew 25:31-46, which I believe is about hospitality toward those who bring the gospel message.
Could the answer be that the fruit is the same but is only good if it is done in such a way as to bring glory to God (Matthew 5:16)? Another thought that would seem to fit well with the context of John 15 - 17 is that the fruit Jesus is speaking of is how Christians treat one another. This also fits with my understanding Matthew 25:31-46, which I believe is about hospitality toward those who bring the gospel message.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
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A Berean
Paidion: Thank you for your reply. I may need to clarify some of the things I had said in the previous post. I was mainly trying to combat the “performance” mentality that is perpetually worried about being “good enough” to be “acceptable enough” before God, apart from Jesus. I was only trying to convey that we can’t do it by ourselves. We need Jesus.
“I am the vine you are the branches.” I was reading that verse the other day and it seemed to just pop out at me and say: “Your source of strength and spiritual nourishment, comes from Christ, and not you, loaves.” “… lest any man should boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9). Like I said before if you don’t “get” the root, you won’t “get” the fruit. And if you don’t “get” the fruit, it is safe to conclude that you never “got” the root (abiding in Christ).
Paidion: I’m glad you pointed out that, yes, Jesus equips us, empowers us, and enables us. But He doesn’t force us. That would be robotic. That would be Calvinistic. That would be plain wrong, and it wouldn’t glorify God to boot.
Over the years, I’ve come across multitudes of needy souls constantly lacking assurance of salvation. I’ve found that it is mainly because we judge ourselves by how well we “perform.” (What are we in? A zoo? Monkeys perform. Elephants perform.) And each failure, each slip up, each lustful thought sends us reeling into gloom and despair, and what happens? We doubt our salvation. Now, since we didn’t “try hard enough” we must now “try even harder.” Amen? No. No “amens” from loaves, this time. But isin’t that how it is with us sometimes, really? Ask yourself that.
Assurance of salvation comes from the witness of God’s spirit within, it’s life, the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. (Rom. 8:2) When my trust is squarely on Christ, and the sufficiency of His sacrifice, I no longer depend on myself for my “performance,” my assurance, and ultimately my salvation. “On Christ the solid Rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand!”
Now this doesn’t mean that I can sin because salvation is in Christ. Is this what you’re getting at, Paidion? In fact, when my focus is life with God and a relationship with Him, I become more and more repentant; more than I ever had in my entire life. Why? Was it my “performance.” No.
Sin grieves God (not something new!). And that’s in part why I repent. My sorrow is not that I failed to try hard enough. My sorrow is not just being sorry about the consequences of my sin. My sorrow in not that I “got caught” in the oval office, and now face impeachment. My sorrow is that I have grieved the supreme God. I have grieved my Daddy. I have let Him down. (2 Cor. 7:10; 1 John 3:9, 20, 24)
As we all mature in our Christian lives, we should be becoming more and more like Jesus. I think we could all agree to that. If you are not becoming more and more like Jesus (included conquering your sin), than you aren’t like Jesus; it’s as simple as that. (1 Peter 2:21). If you don’t hate sin and desire holiness, you aren’t Christ-like. We hate sin and desire holiness not because we fear death, pain, punishment, or hell; but because I have the “mind of Christ” (1 Corinthians 2:16). And Christ had a personal convictions convictions against sin because it grieved His Father. The Law of the Spirit keeps us farther from sin than any mere man-made law could ever do! Hallelujah!
I know a lot of Christians who are constantly defeated by sin and Satan in their lives. This tells me that we trust our own strength, our own ability, our own power. What we need to do is drop to our knees and start trusting God for victory and unassumingly confess our weakness and allow God’s spirit to supply my lack. (2 Cor. 12:9; 1 Cor. 10:13). Bro Denny Kenaston and others have helped me a lot in this area.
Well, I’ll step off my soapbox. Before I leave, can I get an “amen” from the brotherhood? And then from the sisters? Well, brothers and sisters, let’s continue our discussion. This is fun. Paidion, are you still out and about? Please do take the time to answer some of the questions I posed throughout my speech. Anyone is welcome to hop on in and join us.
In the love of Jesus, agape,
loaves
“I am the vine you are the branches.” I was reading that verse the other day and it seemed to just pop out at me and say: “Your source of strength and spiritual nourishment, comes from Christ, and not you, loaves.” “… lest any man should boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9). Like I said before if you don’t “get” the root, you won’t “get” the fruit. And if you don’t “get” the fruit, it is safe to conclude that you never “got” the root (abiding in Christ).
Paidion: I’m glad you pointed out that, yes, Jesus equips us, empowers us, and enables us. But He doesn’t force us. That would be robotic. That would be Calvinistic. That would be plain wrong, and it wouldn’t glorify God to boot.
Over the years, I’ve come across multitudes of needy souls constantly lacking assurance of salvation. I’ve found that it is mainly because we judge ourselves by how well we “perform.” (What are we in? A zoo? Monkeys perform. Elephants perform.) And each failure, each slip up, each lustful thought sends us reeling into gloom and despair, and what happens? We doubt our salvation. Now, since we didn’t “try hard enough” we must now “try even harder.” Amen? No. No “amens” from loaves, this time. But isin’t that how it is with us sometimes, really? Ask yourself that.
Assurance of salvation comes from the witness of God’s spirit within, it’s life, the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. (Rom. 8:2) When my trust is squarely on Christ, and the sufficiency of His sacrifice, I no longer depend on myself for my “performance,” my assurance, and ultimately my salvation. “On Christ the solid Rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand!”
Now this doesn’t mean that I can sin because salvation is in Christ. Is this what you’re getting at, Paidion? In fact, when my focus is life with God and a relationship with Him, I become more and more repentant; more than I ever had in my entire life. Why? Was it my “performance.” No.
Sin grieves God (not something new!). And that’s in part why I repent. My sorrow is not that I failed to try hard enough. My sorrow is not just being sorry about the consequences of my sin. My sorrow in not that I “got caught” in the oval office, and now face impeachment. My sorrow is that I have grieved the supreme God. I have grieved my Daddy. I have let Him down. (2 Cor. 7:10; 1 John 3:9, 20, 24)
As we all mature in our Christian lives, we should be becoming more and more like Jesus. I think we could all agree to that. If you are not becoming more and more like Jesus (included conquering your sin), than you aren’t like Jesus; it’s as simple as that. (1 Peter 2:21). If you don’t hate sin and desire holiness, you aren’t Christ-like. We hate sin and desire holiness not because we fear death, pain, punishment, or hell; but because I have the “mind of Christ” (1 Corinthians 2:16). And Christ had a personal convictions convictions against sin because it grieved His Father. The Law of the Spirit keeps us farther from sin than any mere man-made law could ever do! Hallelujah!
I know a lot of Christians who are constantly defeated by sin and Satan in their lives. This tells me that we trust our own strength, our own ability, our own power. What we need to do is drop to our knees and start trusting God for victory and unassumingly confess our weakness and allow God’s spirit to supply my lack. (2 Cor. 12:9; 1 Cor. 10:13). Bro Denny Kenaston and others have helped me a lot in this area.
Well, I’ll step off my soapbox. Before I leave, can I get an “amen” from the brotherhood? And then from the sisters? Well, brothers and sisters, let’s continue our discussion. This is fun. Paidion, are you still out and about? Please do take the time to answer some of the questions I posed throughout my speech. Anyone is welcome to hop on in and join us.
In the love of Jesus, agape,
loaves
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Well, Jesus spoke of only two kinds of fruit. Only two kinds of trees. Only two kinds of "Ways" you can travel (one narrow, one broad). There are only two ways you can go, nowhere in between, no grey (or is it: gray?) area. 100% towards God, or 100% the other way. What is "fruit" in real life? It is generated from something within. It is the manifestation of something within. And so our "fruit" is the "materialization" of the condition of our souls. Bad trees produce bad fruit. Good trees produce good fruit. Always. If a tree produces bad fruit, I cut it down. Do you follow me? I hope that clears somethings up.Homer wrote:What do you think Jesus meant in John 15:4 regarding "fruit"? There are many unbelievers who do many kind and loving things; they're apparently not part of the vine. According to Jesus they can not produce good fruit.
Agape,
loaves
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Thanks for the answer but it did not help. Perhaps my question wasn't clear.
Several years ago a nearby city was trying to raise enough money for construction of a performing arts center. They did not succeed until a wealthy family donated a huge sum with the condition that the center be named after them. Good fruit? I would say no. But what if they donated the money anonymously for a hospital to help care for poor people; would this be bad fruit if they were unbelievers?
We have some local Baha'is who initiated a project to help extremely poor children in Africa. Some Christians began helping them too. Are the Baha'is bad trees? Aren't they unbelievers as we would understand the term? And if so is the fruit they produce in this charitable (agape) work bad? And if the Christians are involved in the same project, is the Christian's work good fruit and the Baha'is portion of the same work bad fruit?
Surely Jesus had more in mind than would commonly be thought regarding good fruit. What did He mean by fruit, if not as suggested in my post on 1/16? Isn't the answer found in John 15:12-14?
Any ideas, Steve or anyone?
Several years ago a nearby city was trying to raise enough money for construction of a performing arts center. They did not succeed until a wealthy family donated a huge sum with the condition that the center be named after them. Good fruit? I would say no. But what if they donated the money anonymously for a hospital to help care for poor people; would this be bad fruit if they were unbelievers?
We have some local Baha'is who initiated a project to help extremely poor children in Africa. Some Christians began helping them too. Are the Baha'is bad trees? Aren't they unbelievers as we would understand the term? And if so is the fruit they produce in this charitable (agape) work bad? And if the Christians are involved in the same project, is the Christian's work good fruit and the Baha'is portion of the same work bad fruit?
Surely Jesus had more in mind than would commonly be thought regarding good fruit. What did He mean by fruit, if not as suggested in my post on 1/16? Isn't the answer found in John 15:12-14?
Any ideas, Steve or anyone?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
A Berean
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>We have some local Baha'is who initiated a project to help extremely poor children in Africa. Some Christians began helping them too. Are the Baha'is bad trees? Aren't they unbelievers as we would understand the term? And if so is the fruit they produce in this charitable (agape) work bad? And if the Christians are involved in the same project, is the Christian's work good fruit and the Baha'is portion of the same work bad fruit?<
IMO the Baha'is are "loving their neighbor like themselves" and doing the second great command of Jesus which He said is LIKE the first. They may not know Jesus personally but they may know him as much as they can based on the light they have. Does God take this into consideration, i think so.
IMO the Baha'is are "loving their neighbor like themselves" and doing the second great command of Jesus which He said is LIKE the first. They may not know Jesus personally but they may know him as much as they can based on the light they have. Does God take this into consideration, i think so.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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