Jesus in other historical documents...

[Guest]

Hi everyone, I am new to this forum, but not new to forums in general.

I have been at a true loss of information when trying to convince friends of mine that Jesus was here, truly in a historical fashion. I have several books that support the Gospels as being reliable, which helps definitely, but I have also heard that there are other "historical documents" that at least reckognize Jesus as a real historical figure. One pastor I heard referred to some Judaic writings as well as some Roman ones.

Of course, if these documents do exsist, I doubt that they believe or support that Jesus was the son of God, however, it would certianly help me prove a point that Jesus did walk this earth and was mentioned in books and writings other than the Quaran and the Bible.

I guess my question is, if there are other writings of any signifigance, what are they and where can I find them?

I do appreciate all of your patience and help.

Thanks,

- The Mighty Halo (Brian)

[Guest]

Well, there is always Flavius Josephus (not his real name).

He was a first century Jewish commentator and historian (correct me if I'm wrong, anyone!!)

Thomas Nelson compiled his writings in "Josephus The Complete Works" and various other books as well:

http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/ ... em_code=WW

Most importantly, you'll meet the historical Jesus and view Christ's life in a light you've never seen before

Although, you must be warned that Josephus approaches Christianity from an interrogation standpoint. He is generally considered unbiased, and most Jews consider him a traitor since he aided in a seige against Jerusalem alongside the Roman General Titus.

Any other ideas?

[Guest]

Yes, there are several 'hostile witnesses'. The 2 most famous non-biblical & non-christian witnesses to the life of Jesus are probably the writings of Tacitus & Josephus.

Tacitus, a roman historian said:
"To dispel the rumour, Nero substituted as culprits, and treated with the most extreme punishments, some people, popularly known as Christians, whose disgraceful activities were notorious. The originator of that name, Christus, had been executed when Tiberius was Emperor, by order of the procurator Pontius Pilatus. But the deadly cult, though checked for a time, was now breaking out again not only in Judea, the birthplace of this evil, but even throughout Rome, where all the nasty and disgusting ideas from all over the world pour in and find a ready following."
(Annals 15 : 44)

Josephus, a jewish historian said:
Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day.
Jewish Antiquities 18.3.3

There are multiple other sources documented in Norman Geisler's "Baker's Guide to Christian Apologetics"

But I have never placed too much importance in these references. The best evidence that Jesus actually lived is that His followers still exist. And not only do they still exist, but the earliest followeres were willing to die for belief in Him.

If one discounts Jesus as a historical figure based on the number of ancient references to Him, that person would have to discount almost EVERY other figure from that time period and before it since they have less documentation than Jesus.

In Christ,
matthew

[Guest]

There is also "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel. This, of course, is a modern book, and I disagree with Strobel in other areas, but this book approaches the subject from as a journalist's perspective:

http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/ ... em_code=WW

The Case for Christ, a book which chronicles Strobel's journey from atheist to Christian, and offers a compelling argument for the veracity of the Christian faith. Strobel decided to seek out the experts. He was hoping to learn whether the evidence we have about Jesus in the Bible was reliable and accurate.

I recommend this book also. It arms you with arguments that you can lovingly witness to atheists, Muslims, Jews, etc., with.

[Guest]

Thank you all so much for your time and links! This helps me sooo much!

I also agree that if people don't believe in the exsistence of Jesus, then yes, they too must deny all other historical figures based on documentative evidence.

You guys are fantastic and I truly appreciate this forum!

Thanks again,

- Sir Mighty Halo (Brian)

[Guest]

I just want to you to be aware, MightyHalo, that many atheists and others use the following argument (for which there is no evidence):

"Josephus didn't write those words about Jesus. They were added by Christians to the writings of Josephus much later."

[Guest]

I just want to you to be aware, MightyHalo, that many atheists and others use the following argument (for which there is no evidence):

"Josephus didn't write those words about Jesus. They were added by Christians to the writings of Josephus much later."

Ahhh... Thanks for the info. I can easily see that being turned against me in my argument.

I guess it "still" really, only comes down to "faith". I just wish I could open everyone's eyes to what and how my life has been changed.

Thanks again,

- Sir Mighty Halo (Brian)

[Guest]

I just want to you to be aware, MightyHalo, that many atheists and others use the following argument (for which there is no evidence):

"Josephus didn't write those words about Jesus. They were added by Christians to the writings of Josephus much later."

Ahhh... Thanks for the info. I can easily see that being turned against me in my argument.

Thanx for the heads-up, Paidion. Wow, I didn't know that.

I did know that Josephus approaches Christianity as an antagonist.

Paidion: May I ask if you would know when (time wise) the Christians added to Josephus' writings? I would really like to know.

Also, MightyHalo, ask the atheists this: Why did, all of sudden, thousands (possibly tens of thousands) of people become converted to Christianity in the first century? Were they just crazy and madcap? Were they misled? Or is something else going on? This mass conversion was unprecedented during that time period.

When Mohammed and his cronies invented Islam, it took years and years and years … for them to build up the trust of the Arab world, and eventually gain some converts.

But, in first-century Christianity, the conversions are seemingly immediate and abrupt. Was this just an emotional impulse? Or is something deeper going on? Holy Spirit, maybe???

[Guest]

Paidion: May I ask if you would know when (time wise) the Christians added to Josephus' writings? I would really like to know.

Loaves, in my opinion, that didn't happen!

I merely expressed what some people say (without any evidence)

Notice that I placed these words in quotes: "Josephus didn't write those words about Jesus. They were added by Christians to the writings of Josephus much later."

I was quoting atheists and others who make this statement. I believe the statement to be untrue. There is absolutely no evidence for it.

[Guest]

Paidion: May I ask if you would know when (time wise) the Christians added to Josephus' writings? I would really like to know.

Loaves, in my opinion, that didn't happen!

I merely expressed what some people say (without any evidence)

Notice that I placed these words in quotes: "Josephus didn't write those words about Jesus. They were added by Christians to the writings of Josephus much later."

I was quoting atheists and others who make this statement. I believe the statement to be untrue. There is absolutely no evidence for it.

Oh! Forgive me, Paidion.

But when do the atheists say the Christians forged it.