Jesus is not the messiah...

_Micah
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Post by _Micah » Fri Jun 23, 2006 12:47 pm

Emmet,

Thanks for the response. Sorry, it has taken me so long to write back, but like you I have familyworkschool that keeps me quite busy. On your first point:
kaufmannphillips wrote:First, I Kings 22:19-23 seems to indicate that the LORD commanded a spirit to go and and be a liar in order to achieve the divine objective (see likewise its parallel in 2 Chronicles 18:18-22). This may qualify as "another time in scripture where God commands someone to do something evil in order to bring about a good intent...."
In this passage it shows a spirit coming to God requesting to be a liar in the mouths of the false prophets. It appears to me to be the same kind of request Satan made to God about Job, although in a different setting. In this setting God just asks who will entice Ahab, he didn’t say who will lie to Ahab for me. God, however, does accept the spirit’s method of enticement, but God did not suggest that method himself. This brings me back to the Abraham passage where God specifically requests a human sacrifice and he doesn’t do it through it another medium.
Second, it is apparent that human sacrifice violates established principles in the Hebrew bible. Ezekiel 18:20 asserts: "The soul that is sinning -- it will die; the son will not bear [the penalty] in the wrongdoing of the father, and the father will not bear [the penalty] in the wrongdoing of the son; the righteousness of the righteous one will be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked one will be upon him [emphasis added]."
Is it that the son cannot bear the penalty because they are not worthy (sinless/spotless) to bear the sins of their father or they just won’t be held accountable for the sins of their father? I don’t necessarily think this passage is referring to human sacrifice, but just an accountability of wicked and righteous actions. In any case, it is true the son cannot bear the sins because we are all sinful. That is the only reason, according to the gospels, that Jesus is worthy enough to bear the sins of the world because he is without sin.
Micah 6:6-8 is still more pointed: "With what should I go before the LORD; [with what] should I bow myself down to the high God? Should I go before him by means of burnt offerings; [should I go before him] by means of yearling calves? Will the LORD favor by means of thousands of rams; [will the LORD favor] by means of myriads of streams of oil? Should I give my firstborn because of my crime, the fruit of my belly because of the sin of my soul? He has declared to you, O man, what is good, and what is the LORD asking of you except to perform [the appointed] legal decision, and to love lovingkindness, and to walk submissively with your God?"
To me this passage isn’t saying sacrifice is wrong either. It seems to be pointing out the hypocrisy of just sacrificing for forgiveness of sin without attempting to walk in righteousness. As though, the sacrifices have become a meaningless task. I also find it interesting that human sacrifice (firstborn) is lumped in with animal sacrifices, or does firstborn mean something else in this passage?
God's desire is righteousness, not human death or sacrifice, and no person's death is to be in the stead of another.


That I agree with, only because none of us fill the requirement of sacrifice except Jesus Christ.
I myself would not claim that the narrative sections are always perfectly inspired. The covenant does not hinge upon the perfection of every narrative account.
Just curious, I notice several times where you have used this phrase of not perfectly inspired. What exactly do you mean by that? Do you believe there are false statements placed in scripture? Or just simple nuances that are not correct (like there are 2 birds instead of one), but the whole story in itself is true?

Thanks for your time. Take care.
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Post by _Steve » Sat Jun 24, 2006 7:45 pm

Dave (Schoel),

As for your last post, I agree completely, and am glad you felt the liberty to state the goals of this forum in those terms.

Blessings!
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Post by _kaufmannphillips » Sun Jun 25, 2006 4:14 pm

Hello, Dave,

Thank you for both of your posts. I am glad for your reassurance; both the trajectory of dialogue and the flurry of responses I received recently made me sensitive to the role I was taking on. I am sensitive to this right now because I am trying to form a non-sectarian study group on the early church, and I don't want to give the impression that I am looking to bait and beat Christians. Rather, I am interested in studying and observing the shape of the church in its early formative period -- one of the classic (and most relevant) mysteries of religious scholarship. I do not expect that study to engage the topic of the historical Jesus; for the study’s sake, it is not so important what Jesus thought, but rather what people in the church were thinking. For that, the documents of the New Testament and the Apostolic Fathers are primary evidence.


To return to our discussion:

As you have highlighted, my initial comment was that my influences lead me to distinguish between the historical Jesus and the portrayal(s) of Jesus in the New Testament.

I have made the distinction between primary and secondary sources, and I believe this distinction to be a conservative approach to historiography. As such, introducing the "innocent until proven guilty" construct is a bit like apples and oranges. The legal system is designed to manage criminal behavior, not to write history.

The American system of law has chosen to cultivate a standard that protects the rights of the accused, at the risk of letting a criminal go free; although its results render a person legally guilty or not guilty, the system does not yield an authoritative verification of a person's innocence (cf. O. J. Simpson). Other contexts will require different thresholds of credibility. To illustrate, the Torah itself protects the accused party to a certain extent by requiring two witnesses to bring about the death penalty -- but it does not require people to let the accused party baby-sit for them because he only had blood on his clothes.

In discussing the gospels -- or any other piece of historical evidence, for that matter -- it is questionable whether applying an "innocent until proven guilty" methodology will be helpful. Historiography is not a court of law; it is a (hopefully disciplined) commentary. Although it should try to be careful about treating its subjects fairly, it is not required to follow a methodology that treats men or their literary remains as angelic until proven otherwise. Nor, when a text of any tradition makes extraordinary claims, is it the duty of historiography to be credulous, unless conclusive proof has been given to the contrary. Otherwise we would be studying the exploits of Heracles in our history classes instead of our Classics departments; there is no way to disprove that the Greek hero slew the Lernaean Hydra, for example. What reasonable historiography will do is preferentially expect for people to act within a normative range for their time and culture. For the ancient Mediterranean world, this normative range includes religious creativity, dependence upon hearsay, and naïveté about matters beyond one’s relative sphere. Each of these factors complicate approaching literary works of the period as fully reliable historical accounts.

[Now, if I may digress from commenting as a historian to commenting from a more Jewish perspective:

Christians, in their desire to protect that which is sacred to them, often demand a higher standard of credulity than they themselves would give to other phenomena. (For example, many are willing to accept the miraculous activities of Jesus and the apostles, but are skeptical about the miracles attributed to Catholic saints.) There is an understandable, yet preferential desire to conserve the fundamentals of Christian faith, unless inescapable evidence be presented to the contrary.

A Jewish perspective approaches the matter without a desire to conserve the Christian faith, and as such it will not extend the same line of credit. Rather, a Jewish person will look at the claims and themes of Christianity and note that there are striking differences between it and the faith known from the Israelite/Jewish tradition alone. Because of these points of dissimilarity, a Jewish person will be disinclined to treat the Christian claims as “innocent until proven guilty.” Instead, there will be a tendency to treat them as “fantastic and strange unless proven otherwise.” I submit that many Christians will react in a similar way to “Hare Krishna” devotees or Tibetan monks.

These comments may (hopefully) help a Christian audience better appreciate the experience and perspective of an outside tradition. Many Christians see the Israelite/Jewish tradition and the Christian tradition as hand-in-glove. This is because few Christians have tried to understand the Israelite/Jewish tradition as an independent entity. But when that tradition stands on its own, it quite naturally finds the Christian tradition to be “other.”]


To move ahead, historiographical study suggests that the synoptics have nuanced their portrayals in the gospels. This does not utterly invalidate the records found in the gospels. What it does illustrate is that each witness is at least one degree removed from the perspective of Jesus himself. [Archaeological verification is fine; it confirms a certain shared context. However, the mere existence of a gate or a pool is on a different magnitude of order from the nuance of a teaching: one is obvious, while the other is subtle; one is easy to verify, while the other is difficult to confirm; one is of mundane significance, while the other is of profound significance.] If the synoptics have nuanced the teachings of Jesus, as it appears through comparative study, then we may conclude that we have received our understanding of Jesus' teaching through selective filters. This conclusion holds whether or not the gospel writers were strictly accurate in their portrayals. [But on the issue of accuracy, please pardon my referring you to my response to steve7150 below.]

Because of selectivity, we should acknowledge that the gospel writers give incomplete and tailored portrayals of Jesus, even if there are no inaccuracies in their representations (strictly speaking). This may or may not lead to inaccurate understandings of Jesus himself, due to selectivity (both conscious and unconscious). But the gospel writers included in their works the things they wanted their audiences to know, for better and/or for worse. Therefore, the Jesus we see is the Jesus that was important to them. I do not see any compelling reason for refusing a methodological distinction between this Jesus (or, I should say, “these Jesuses,” because there are four of them) and the historical Jesus. The question at hand thus becomes whether or not the gospel writers provided sufficiently indicative portrayals of the historical Jesus. This is open to rational discussion, but (like much history) difficult to prove one way or the other.


To move on to a next point, you have asked why the gospel writers would have been mistaken or even deceitful in what they did. I will list a catalog of possibilities only:

1) Not all of the gospel writers were eyewitnesses to Jesus’ ministry (and it is possible that none of them were). As such, they were dependent upon the first-hand, second-hand, or thirty-fourth-hand testimony of others;

2) For those writers who may have been eyewitnesses, they still had to pass their experiences through the filters of their own minds. As such, they could transmit to us what they perceived and understood, but this may have taken a form different from Jesus’ own perspective. If you will pardon my own reference to the legal profession, eyewitnesses are notoriously unreliable sources for evidence. This is due to each individual’s personal filter (and capacity for observation);

3) As mentioned above, the gospel writers found their own meaning in Jesus, which may have had greater or lesser correspondence to Jesus’ self-understood meaning. This meaning may have been rooted in their individual presuppositions or psychological drives, and it may have colored their recollection of data;

4) The gospel writers were producing their works for intended audiences. As such, their desire to couch their message in accessible terms may have colored their perception and/or transmission of data.

Now, I think there are plenty of reasonable ways for well-intentioned people to consciously or unconsciously corrupt transmission of data. But if we had to stoop into the dark alleys of possibility, there could be dozens of motivating factors that might lead to deceit, e.g., hope for personal influence, desire to avoid embarrassment, means of material support, wish for philosophical or theological respectability, overweening creativity, etc.


To move forward again, one can make a case for using the three synoptics in cross-reference with one another, as you have recommended. This is a standard approach of historical commentators, making some allowance for what appears to be each writer’s personal tendencies. The result gives us a portrait of Jesus which may well be close to the historical Jesus. Nevertheless, disciplined scholasticism will distinguish between this third-hand (at best) portrayal and the historical Jesus himself.

It is difficult, however, to approach the gospel of John as a comparable resource to the synoptics. John stands in marked contrast to the synoptics when it comes to character and content. Because the synoptics portray a Jesus more natural to his historical context, and because their common tradition outnumbers John three-to-one, and because John seems to reflect heavy and distinct theologization, it is understandable to prefer their portrayal over John’s, historically speaking. To some extent, when one considers the panoply of apocryphal gospel materials, it highlights how the gospel of John differs from the synoptics, being similar in some respects to apocryphal material. Many Christians are not sensitive to this because they have had limited exposure to non-canonical literature, and because they have rarely engaged the gospels as independent sources rather than cooperative sources.

On your next to last point, “believing that the gospels misrepresented the historical Jesus” would not need to “assume that we have another more reliable source of the life of Jesus with which to compare.” Belief can be based on whatever one chooses – but I do not recall speaking of belief. Rather, I distinguished the sources we have from the historical Jesus himself. As I have mentioned, the question of whether or not the gospel writers provided indicative portrayals of the historical Jesus is open to discussion, but difficult to prove. But it is my concern to point out what many Christians neglect pondering: we do not have Jesus’ direct testimony, but that of outside sources.

Your final question deals with the empty tomb. Setting aside the fact that we only have pious tales as our basic evidence (of which there is no shortage in hundreds of religious traditions), there are rational possibilities for the empty tomb that would entail neither resurrection nor duplicity on the parts of the disciples. For example, what if the guards over the tomb chose to have sport with the remains, or played a cruel joke on the disciples – and didn’t dare to admit it later?

But I have no huge difficulty with the empty tomb or with a possible resurrection per se. What many Christians fail to appreciate is that an empty tomb/resurrection would not prove that the New Testament was an accurate account of the life and significance of Jesus of Nazareth, nor would it prove that Christianity in its “orthodox” form was a correct religion. Jesus’ ministry and life-work could have met with sufficient approval from heaven for him to receive some miraculous honor. But people who followed after him could have diverged from his way, to lesser and/or greater extents. We have precious little evidence, most notably, for the activities of his own chosen deputies, who quickly melt into obscurity when it comes to records that have even the slightest claim to historical credibility.

I apologize for the lengthy response, but you raised a lot of issues :D . Thank you again for your postings.

Emmet
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Post by _kaufmannphillips » Sun Jun 25, 2006 4:22 pm

Hello, Steve,

Thank you for your most recent posting.

It is common for Christians to view the gospels as complimentary. It is also common for scholars to analyze and understand the gospels as distinct entities. Once one becomes sensitized to their distinct characters, the gospels appear somewhat less complimentary. Often this is more a matter of contrasting overarching themes and theological priorities than a matter of quibbling over how many angels appear at a tomb.

On this latter point, however, there comes a point when even creative harmonization begins to tax one’s credulity. For example, how many times did Jesus cleanse the temple, exactly? John 2:13-17 places a cleansing near the beginning of Jesus’ ministry. Matthew 21 and Mark 11, on the other hand, place a cleansing during the final days in Jerusalem. No major problem here, I suppose. But how many times did Jesus cleanse the temple in his last week? Matthew appears to have Jesus do it on his first day in Jerusalem, before he curses the fig tree the next morning. Mark appears to have Jesus do it on his second day in Jerusalem, after cursing the fig tree in the morning. So did Jesus cleanse the temple twice in the same week? To believe so would require imagining that the temple managers were not ready for his second outburst, and more importantly, it would require that both gospel writers somehow chose to overlook the repeated nature of Jesus’ activity. Does it not seem more likely that one gospel writer accidentally (or intentionally, for stylistic purposes) dislocated the event from one day to the other? It would be remarkable if three of four gospel writers should all place the temple cleansing at different times, unless such was a repeated behavior of Jesus’, in which case it is remarkable that none of the gospel writers mentioned his recurring activity. In the narrative of his last week, it would highlight the obstinacy of the Jews, persevering in sullying the temple with commerce.

Or, on the other hand, how was the fig tree cursed? Matthew indicates that the fig tree was cursed after the temple incident, and it withered on the spot, and the disciples were struck by how immediately the tree withered under Jesus’ curse. In Mark, Jesus curses the tree before cleansing the temple, and the day after that, Peter sees the tree withered and remembers Jesus cursing it. One could postulate that there were actually two trees, but given the shape of the narrative, it seems more likely that Mark’s account was massaged so as to straddle the temple cleansing in a chiasm, or that Matthew’s account was massaged so as to eliminate the implication of the chiasm. (This common literary form would have been a narrative device to emphasize and/or correlate the theological significance of both the cleansing and the cursing – highly understandable, but indicative of how the gospel accounts are at least one degree removed from actual events.)

But if one performs a Herculean feat of harmonization and does choose to reconcile each of these accounts (this might be accomplished by proposing two fig trees and postulating an unmentioned passing of a day in Matthew), the matter at least indicates how each one of the narratives gave a somewhat distorted impression of the entire chain of events – emphasizing how selectivity can result in misapprehension. But I think that narrative license more easily accounts for the diversity between the two passages, and this license is indicative of the intermediary filter between the historical Jesus and the gospels’ audience.

And these are examples of narrative events, not theological discourses, which are far more complex and pliable in recollection and/or editorial adjustment!


On your other theme, sincerity is no guarantee of accuracy. Even if John were utterly sincere, he could be sincerely off base. I do not recall calling the gospel writers liars. I have, however, distinguished their perspectives and portrayals from the historical Jesus himself.

Thank you again for your ongoing dialogue!

Emmet
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Post by _kaufmannphillips » Sun Jun 25, 2006 4:40 pm

Hello, Steve,

Thank you for your recent posting.

I agree that people approach evidence with greater or lesser predispositions toward skepticism. Because disciplined historians are critical investigators, they naturally approach evidence with a comparatively greater inclination toward skepticism. Indeed, similar skepticism is involved in all historical studies, from ancient periods up to modern times. This does not result in a vacuum of knowledge, but it does result in a plethora of argued theories, qualified observations, and hedged bets. This is the way of modern historiography, and though many audiences would prefer neat resolutions, it is doubtful that such would lead us into more accurate knowledge – just the illusion of it.

On the matter of distinguishing the historical Jesus from the “Jesuses” of the gospels, I hope you will pardon my referring you to my post above to Dave (schoel).

You have provided a list of reasons to doubt that people are telling the truth. This should be differentiated from a list of reasons to doubt that what people are saying is entirely accurate. I have already touched upon a number of practical factors in my response to Dave. As a (fellow) observer of human behavior for many years, I could mention a number of considerations:

1) People are often inclined to be credulous toward narratives that are emotionally meaningful to them. Hence, from Catholics you can find stories that involve the power of the rosary or the cult of saints, and amongst Pentecostals you can hear miraculous tales that validate their distinctives. For such of these stories as may be amplified or mischaracterized, it is beyond believing that such stories are told deceptively by every person in their chain of transmission. Rather, people are willing to think less critically about embracing and recounting stories that affirm what they find meaningful;

2) People are inclined to perceive and process phenomena in accordance with their philosophical constructs and their psychological needs. As such, they may interpret events as manifestations of divine intervention or spiritual warfare, when in actuality these events may or may not be so. Furthermore, they may ascribe a cosmic significance to events that are purely mundane. This can be especially pronounced in cases of extreme loss, where the individual has a profound psychological need to redeem their experience with greater significance. When people articulate such perceptions or conceptions and share them with others, they may not be strictly accurate, yet they may not be intentionally deceptive;

3) People are often slipshod about points of detail, and they often gloss or embroider when recounting narratives. These adjustments in transmission can occur without self-awareness, and they often occur in such a way as to amplify the significance which the transmitter has identified (for whatever personal reason) in the story;

4) People often reorient their perception of a matter around whatever its most outstanding qualities seem to be. As such, important pieces of the whole become eclipsed while other portions become ascendant. These ascendant pieces, wrested from their original proportion, can result in misapprehension of the whole;

5) People often like to generate and/or champion novel interpretations of phenomena. These can become the beloved children or mistresses of one’s heart and psyche, and in their infatuation, individuals can propagate them without the slightest recognition of departure from sheer accuracy.

It is unnecessary to characterize the sources behind the New Testament as outright liars. However, given their individual philosophical tendencies, psychological needs, and extenuating circumstances, they may have become convinced of things that were not in actuality accurate. What is more, they may have courageously sacrificed and perished for these inaccuracies. But convincement and commitment are not guarantees of accuracy or truth.

[By the way, your third qualification for dismissing people’s testimony was if “what they are saying is plain stupid or intrinsically implausible.” Naturally, “stupid” and “implausible” are in the eye of the beholder. I hope that I do not give too much offense by submitting that the following narrative might qualify for the descriptor "questionable" in the eyes of fair-minded people:

God, after twelve centuries of chastising his people for worshipping anything besides him, decides to surprise them by becoming a carpenter’s son. When they foolishly refuse to worship him in human form, he provokes them into killing him, which is what he actually wants, because his innocent murder helps him get past people’s sinfulness. After he comes back to life and makes a few semi-private appearances, he quickly disappears, but for those who might complain that he never fulfilled certain prophecies, they should be assured that he will come back to take care of those later.]


I will agree, Steve, that many arguments brought against the gospels are not airtight. However, the lack of airtight disproof is not sufficient reason to extend credence to something. Given the generally observable nature of human perception and behavior, I do not believe that it is inordinate to methodologically distinguish between the historical Jesus and the portrayals of him in the New Testament. That distinguishing, due to lack of evidence, only raises the possibility that the historical Jesus was significantly different than as he has been portrayed by various sources. But fairness and intellectual honesty requires that this possibility be recognized, and taken into account when analyzing the documents of the New Testament.

Thank you for your ongoing kindness, Steve. I look forward to an opportunity to visit in person.

Emmet
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Post by _Steve » Sun Jun 25, 2006 6:11 pm

Hi Emmet,

I actually agree with everything you said in your last two posts, with the exception of your concluding four paragraphs in your post addressed to me. While all the factors that you enumerated do exist in human nature, there is no reason to assume that any of them influenced the writing of the gospels.

When you actually see a two men walk upon the surface of a lake, or see dead people raised by a command, or see the lame, blind, and leprous healed by a touch, or you see a psychopath made instantly and permanently sane and, at the same moment, a herd of pigs made insane as the result of a verbal order given to demonic spirits—and you see such things happening on a daily basis in association with the same individual—there is little likelihood that you will be merely interpreting natural phenomena through the lens of pious imagination.

Further, even if all the discrepancies you mentioned in the gospels, and all others besides, are viewed as irreconcilable, they only go to prove the entire independence of the writers from one another. Each of them, despite the inconsequential differences in detail, presents the same character of Jesus as does each of the others.

I believe that this holds true even of John's narrative, which (as we all know) is often accused of providing an incompatible picture of Jesus, vis-a-vis the synoptic tradition. Even if one wished (unfairly) to omit John's testimony from consideration, the portrait of Jesus of Nazareth in the remaining gospels is sufficiently consistent as not to leave reasonable doubt whether the character of the historical Jesus is essentially preserved in the narratives.

I recently read Simon Greenleaf's little book, "The Testimony of the Evangelists: The Gospels Examined by the Rules of Evidence," originally published posthumously in 1874 (Now available from Kregel Classics, Grand Rapids, MI). Its author, one of the original organizers of Harvard Law School, was the author of the three-volume work, "A Treatise on the Law of Evidence," which is considered a classic of American Jurisprudence. Greenleaf was born of Jewish parents, but was an agnostic prior to his study of the the gospels. According to some, he studied the gospels, originally, with a mind to disprove them.

It was such a delight to read the reasoning of such an uncluttered intellect as Mr. Greenleaf's. Unencumbered with the modern gratuitous skepticism of modern "New Testament Scholars" (they are not really historians, in most cases, but rather, literary critics—real historians and archaeologists have a much higher regard for the integrity of the gospels), he applied the very same rules of evidence to the testimony of the gospels that would be used in any enlightened courtroom—even when trying a capital case.

Greenleaf was not unaware of the critical schools, but he seemed to see as clearly as I think I do the obvious bias in their methods. Everything you pointed out as variations in the gospel accounts would easily be taken into account in the testimonies of four witnesses to the same series of events when heard in a court of law. Greenleaf, like myself, made no assumptions as to the inspiration or infallibility of the authors. He examined only the credibility of their testimonies, just as a judge, an attorney, or a sensible juror would do.

It was so refreshing to read an intelligent examiner making use of the objective rules of evidence, rather than the totally subjective sophistry arising from the "arts" (I think it debases the meaning of words to call them "sciences") of "source" and "form" criticism, which are the basis for virtually every liberal scholar's rejection of the gospels' veracity!

In my judgment, Greenleaf's book, though only about 50 pages long, provides such an unanswerable case as to expose the complete inconsistency in assessing evidence that is the norm in modern critical scholarship of the New Testament.

I fully concur with Greenleafs conclusion:

"With the relative merits of modern harmonists, and with points of controversy among theologians the writer has no concern. His business is that of a lawyer examining the testimony of witnesses by the rules of his profession, in order to ascertain whether, if they had thus testified on oath, in a court of justice, they would be entitled to credit and whether their narratives, as we now have them, would be received as ancient documents, coming from proper custody. If so, then it is believed that every honest and impartial man will act consistently with that result, by receiving their testimony..."

This is not merely some prejudiced, pious assertion, but the inescapable result of the application of the normal rules of evidence to the gospel narratives, examined in the earlier pages.

I think the entire text of this book can be read at the following, and other websites: http://www.bibleteacher.org/sgtestimony.htm. I would highly recommend it to anyone interested in truth, and not already committed to any preferred conclusions.
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:03 pm

But if one performs a Herculean feat of harmonization and does choose to reconcile each of these accounts (this might be accomplished by proposing two fig trees and postulating an unmentioned passing of a day in Matthew), the matter at least indicates how each one of the narratives gave a somewhat distorted impression of the entire chain of events – emphasizing how selectivity can result in misapprehension. But I think that narrative license more easily accounts for the diversity between the two passages, and this license is indicative of the intermediary filter between the historical Jesus and the gospels’ audience.


Hi Emmet, I see the Sabbath has reved up your engine. My understanding of Matthew"s style of writing is that he often knits together his gospel by topics and often not by writing chronologically as opposed to Mark. It is true that Jesus cleansed the temple two separate times ,John 2.15 and this incident you are referring to. At this time Jesus actually went up to the temple twice ,first in Mark 11.11 "And Jesus went into Jerusalem and into the temple" but it was late and he left.

If you read the two accounts of the fig tree they sound similar,
Mark 11.12 "Now the next day ,when they had come out of Bethany , HE WAS HUNGRY"
Matt 21.18 "Now in the morning,as he returned to the city, HE WAS HUNGRY"
These accounts are not identical but similar and in both accounts Jesus cursed the fig tree. In Matthew they immediately responded but in Mark it says the next morning the fig tree WAS DRIED UP FROM THE ROOTS and Peter exclaimed. So it seems to me that Mark did'nt record their initial response but noted the next day the tree was dried up from the roots which Matthew did'nt mention had happened the day before.
It's not an identical description but the essence is the same ,the point of the story is the same, Jesus cursed a fig tree and it withered and the disciples were astonished. Should i dismiss it because it's not verbatim the same.
IMO Matthew organized his gospel topically and decided to put the topic of the fig tree after the cleansing of the temple.
I really don't see harmonizing these accounts as herculean feats but rather simply acknowleging that although these writers were inspired to write their accounts IMO they themselves are human beings with different writing styles and vantage points.
What do you think the skeptics would say if the accounts were virtually identical? It's almost a rhetorical question.
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Post by _schoel » Mon Jun 26, 2006 12:06 pm

Emmet,
Thanks for your responses.
Because of selectivity, we should acknowledge that the gospel writers give incomplete and tailored portrayals of Jesus, even if there are no inaccuracies in their representations (strictly speaking). This may or may not lead to inaccurate understandings of Jesus himself, due to selectivity (both conscious and unconscious). But the gospel writers included in their works the things they wanted their audiences to know, for better and/or for worse. Therefore, the Jesus we see is the Jesus that was important to them. I do not see any compelling reason for refusing a methodological distinction between this Jesus (or, I should say, “these Jesuses,” because there are four of them) and the historical Jesus. The question at hand thus becomes whether or not the gospel writers provided sufficiently indicative portrayals of the historical Jesus. This is open to rational discussion, but (like much history) difficult to prove one way or the other.
In your research, it is my understanding that you found the Israelite/Jewish tradition to be a trustworthy source.
Was the above quoted principle also applied to the Jewish scriptures? How do you know that the historical information in the Israelite/Jewish tradition isn't colored by the writer's perception of the events recorded to the extent that it isn't an accurate portrayal?

My point is that choosing to deny the historicity of the Gospels because of the assertion of the above statement would also need to be applied to the Jewish scriptures (what I refer to as the Old Testament). Both are rooted in God revealing himself to humanity through historical events as recorded by humans. Both would be subject to misrepresentation.

-----------------------------------

BTW-
Try this link for the Simon Greenleaf document.
http://www.bibleteacher.org/sgtestimony.htm
(Steve's link doesn't work as the link included a period at the end.)
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Reply to Micah

Post by _kaufmannphillips » Mon Jun 26, 2006 2:12 pm

Hello, Micah,

Thank you for your posting. I for one am willing to wait a few days for a good response!

I can appreciate your comments on I Kings 22 and its potential as a parallel to the Akedah. For what it is worth, in Job God does not command Satan to do anything, but he releases Job into Satan’s hand. In I Kings, God may be giving more of a direct command confirming the spirit’s intent. But you are right that God is the initiator in the Akedah, as opposed to the agent of approval. I Kings differs from the Akedah narrative in another way, too, inasmuch as God never intends for the human sacrifice to be done in the Akedah, but in I Kings the deception is carried out. But it may be admitted that God does not always appear to behave as well as we might like in the Hebrew bible. This is OK for one reason or another: either because the narratives are somewhat immature representations of God; or because God is a person, not a conceptual ideal, and we love and trust him even if we are sometimes taken aback by his behavior.


Regarding the Ezekiel passage, the chapter emphasizes the principle that the innocent are not put to death for the guilty – at least not judicially. This is a basic principle for divine justice, and the theory of substitutionary atonement violates this principle. Rather, each person lives or dies based upon their own chosen way of being – a way of being that either embraces what is life-giving or clings to something that is eventually fatal. Accordingly, the chapter emphasizes that repentance is the operational pivot from death to life. Sacrifice is not termed inherently essential to the salvific economy.


The Micah passage emphasizes that sacrifice is not the operational pivot for atonement, but rather righteousness. Sacrifice is only ritual – at best an expression or celebration of deeper reality. But when the reality is not present, the ritual does not accomplish atonement.

Given “fruit of my belly,” I think firstborn refers to human offspring. There appears to have been infant sacrifice in the ancient Near East.

God's desire is righteousness, not human death or sacrifice, and no person's death is to be in the stead of another.
That I agree with, only because none of us fill the requirement of sacrifice except Jesus Christ.
Jesus does not fulfill the requirement either, because he too is a person. His righteousness is his own, and the sins of others are their own.

Just curious, I notice several times where you have used this phrase of not perfectly inspired. What exactly do you mean by that? Do you believe there are false statements placed in scripture? Or just simple nuances that are not correct (like there are 2 birds instead of one), but the whole story in itself is true?
I would argue that incorrect nuances are false statements. But to answer your question, I mean that although there may have been a greater or lesser inspiration of the holy spirit attendant to the production of the narrative, the level of infilling may not have produced a completely accurate narrative.

Thank you again for your posting, Micah.

Shalom,
Emmet
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_kaufmannphillips
Posts: 227
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Reply to Steve G.

Post by _kaufmannphillips » Mon Jun 26, 2006 2:15 pm

Hello, Steve,

Thank you for your prompt response.
While all the factors that you enumerated do exist in human nature, there is no reason to assume that any of them influenced the writing of the gospels.
I would not say that one should assume that any of these factors influenced the writing of the gospels. I would say that one should not assume that they did not influence the writing of the gospels.

The gospel writers were human beings, and the historian does not need further warrant to suspect their narratives of being susceptible to such influences. Such suspicion may be amplified by: (1) cultural tendencies in the ancient Mediterranean world; (2) the traumatic events undergone by the early church and by the attendant psychological stressors; (3) the points of distinction between the accounts; and (4) the extraordinary claims of the narratives. But in any case, it should be admitted that suspicion is not assumption. Suspicion is a normative and essential tool for careful historical inquiry. Although you appear to take issue with it, it should be no more offensive than the perennial skepticism of a vice squad detective; though it may be impolite, it is requisite in the pursuit of truth.

When you actually see a two men walk upon the surface of a lake, or see dead people raised by a command, or see the lame, blind, and leprous healed by a touch, or you see a psychopath made instantly and permanently sane and, at the same moment, a herd of pigs made insane as the result of a verbal order given to demonic spirits—and you see such things happening on a daily basis in association with the same individual—there is little likelihood that you will be merely interpreting natural phenomena through the lens of pious imagination.
I have little quibble to make with wonder-working narratives, though they abound in numerous religious traditions, and there are plausible natural or psychological explanations for at least some miraculous accounts. And perhaps you might agree that the miraculous exploits of those whom one agrees with will seem to be divine confirmation, while those of parties whom one disagrees with will not.

My primary issues are not with miraculous episodes, but with: (1) the significance attributed to phenomena, which can be more a matter of the beholder’s perspective; and (2) the recounting of delicate theological discourse, which can easily be misconstrued and/or imprecisely recalled by a secondary source.


Further, even if all the discrepancies you mentioned in the gospels, and all others besides, are viewed as irreconcilable, they only go to prove the entire independence of the writers from one another. Each of them, despite the inconsequential differences in detail, presents the same character of Jesus as does each of the others.

I believe that this holds true even of John's narrative, which (as we all know) is often accused of providing an incompatible picture of Jesus, vis-a-vis the synoptic tradition. Even if one wished (unfairly) to omit John's testimony from consideration, the portrait of Jesus of Nazareth in the remaining gospels is sufficiently consistent as not to leave reasonable doubt whether the character of the historical Jesus is essentially preserved in the narratives.

To a certain extent, we are dealing here with questions of interpretive discretion. Does a certain fruit taste sufficiently like an orange? What gradation of difference should qualify as “inconsequential”? How much divergence from a common witness is allowed before a portrayal is sufficiently distinct to raise questions of historical accuracy?

And, specifically, in what way(s) is it unfair to discount the gospel of John? [That one is not rhetorical :D .]

I will re-articulate a previous point by noting that many Christians may not be sensitive to the consequential aspect of distinctives, because the distinctives have all been melded into a composite portrait of the “orthodox” Jesus. Thus, points of divergence may not appear to be consequential, because they match up with what a Christian already expects for Jesus. But this is circular. The gospels should be explored intimately on their own, and after having been made familiar with all of their individual flavor (both overt and subtle), only then should they be compared and correlated.

Beyond this, many Christians are insufficiently literate in the context of the New Testament to recognize what markers are consequential and inconsequential. [More on this below.]


I will respond generally to your comments regarding Mr. Greenleaf’s book, though I will freely admit that I have not read it.

First of all, Mr. Greenleaf’s efforts appear to be part of a recurring tradition in Christian publication, wherein persons who may be extraordinarily skilled in one discipline attempt to engage a field that is outside their expertise. Lee Strobel would be a red-letter example of this tradition in the present day. As I touched on in an earlier post to Dave (schoel), applying American jurisprudence to historiography is comparing apples and oranges. By all means, try the case in an American court if one wishes, and if the defendants are declared “not guilty,” then let the American government refrain from prosecuting them. But historiography is not jurisprudence, and because the disciplines are entrusted with different tasks, they involve different standards of credibility and different methodologies. In some ways the one is more liberal than the other, and vice versa.

Beyond comparing apples and oranges, despite these individuals’ achievements in other fields, the vast majority of non-professionals simply lack the literacy to properly engage matters of historiography in the New Testament period. For one thing, Mr. Greenleaf was inescapably impoverished by simple fact of his expiring before the archaeological discoveries that revolutionized the field over the subsequent century. For another thing, Mr. Greenleaf did not have recourse to the pivotal conceptual advances made in the scholarly field in the past century-and-a-quarter.

For modern counterparts like Mr. Strobel, it still is highly doubtful that these individuals are sufficiently literate to reliably meet the challenge of the field. Sufficient literacy for the period would require: proficiency in at least six languages; intimate familiarity with half-a-dozen-or-so ancient Near Eastern and Mediterranean cultures, including their bodies of literature and their respective assortments of religious and philosophical movements; knowledge of historical developments and circumstances for roughly a 1000-year period; and practical experience in analogous living conditions. Of course, many college professors lack such a resume, including myself in the days when I taught biblical studies. But after years of graduate study in both Christianity and biblical studies, I still would not consider myself literate enough to yield conclusive evaluations on many subjects (though you might never have guessed that ;-) ). I am occasionally literate enough to recognize where there is need for deeper investigation and analysis. But individuals from outside the field, like Messers Greenleaf and Strobel, can hardly be expected to tender a knowledgeable assessment of such a highly complex area of study, precisely because they lack the competence to recognize where pertinent complications arise.

Now, I recognize that such a statement as the previous paragraphs reeks of elitism and snobbery. That does not make their basic point any less true; some fields demand more than non-specialists can offer. Of course, this does not stop amateurs from trumpeting their well-convinced but naive perspectives. A striking example can be found in the medical field, where comprehensive competency would take many years of demanding labor to achieve, but where shoe salesmen can heedlessly shill herbal treatments. Does this mean that herbs are useless, or that shoe salesmen have no insight into medical matters? Of course not, but one would be foolish to rely upon herbal treatment as one’s primary medical care. Ginkgo biloba can only do so much for a person who requires bypass surgery. Likewise, though individuals like Messers Greenleaf and Strobel can make useful contributions to biblical studies, these contributions are necessarily limited – often in ways that neither the contributors nor their audiences have sufficient background to appreciate.

Now, to move along to a couple of your rhetorical points. To begin with, it is reasonably appropriate to term source and form criticism “arts,” and not “sciences.” As far as I am concerned, the same thing could be said for historiography. None of these disciplines are fully susceptible to the scientific method, because their subjects are not available for controlled testing. But like all arts, literary criticism and historiography require technical skill. What is more, unlike the fine arts, these disciplines have a greater concern than creativity or the pleasing of an audience. Furthermore, the status of these disciplines as arts does not mean that they do not have a commitment or an accountability to evidence.

On a second point, one can undoubtedly find examples of literary criticism or historiography that qualify for the epithet “sophistry.” We can even find sophistry amongst the “hard” sciences, or amongst “orthodox” religionists. But it is irresponsible to dismiss these fields entirely because one does not like the conclusions that some of their practitioners yield. To dismiss source and form criticisms as “totally subjective” is misleading, and it belies the fact that these analytical activities are subject to evidence, to reasonable argumentation, and to peer review.

On a third point, labels like “liberal” and “conservative,” though they yield a lot of rhetorical traction, can be both relative and misleading. “Conservative” scholars can be liberal about giving credence, and “liberal” scholars can be conservative about assigning credence. Most “bible Christians” today would have been “liberal” during the medieval period for rejecting the established authority of the church.


To wind up, I greatly doubt that “the normal rules of evidence” would result in the acceptance of the gospel narratives as fully accurate. The reason for this is that the gospels claim extraordinary things. As such, they require extraordinary proof, beyond the mere assertion of the half-a-dozen-or-so writers traditionally assigned to the New Testament, and beyond the fervent embrace of a pre-medieval religious group. Any parallel aggregation of wonder-working stories and speculative theology would not command acceptance based simply upon “the normal rules of evidence.” Elsewise audiences should become followers of the Sufi sheikh Asrar Al-Towhid Fi Maqamat Al-Seyk Abi Said, or perhaps the Hasidic rebbe Baal Shem Tov.

Extraordinary proof, of course, will only be stipulated by non-believers as a prerequisite to embracing the claims of the New Testament. Believers, on the other hand, would naturally demand extraordinary proof to dislodge them from their faith.

Thank you for your posting, Steve. I look forward to your comments on treatment of the gospel of John, as you have opportunity.

Shalom,
Emmet
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