A welcome....

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kaufmannphillips
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Re: A welcome....

Post by kaufmannphillips » Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:26 pm

steve7150 wrote:
You may be right Emmet, i don't know any Christians who openly espouse beliefs like this but i can't read anyone's hearts.
I read people's words to discern what is in their hearts (cf. your Luke 6:45), and there are many Christians who routinely and blithely mock and belittle the Torah and Jewish religion. They may not always recognize the natural corollary of their views - that they are making G-d out to have impoverished generations of people with a substandard religion - and that holding to this concept suggests a low estimation of the character of G-d or a low appreciation for the people involved. But many Christians openly express their notions about Jewish religion as burdensome and/or substandard morally and/or rife with meaningless stipulations and/or inadequate as a paradigm for interrelating with G-d.

You may claim naivete about such expressions, if you will. But when you attempt to characterize the commandments as merely superficial, you are in line with a long Christian tradition of belittling Jewish religion, with the aim of making Christianity seem superior.

steve7150 wrote:
Lastly i am around religious jews a lot and i know from personal experience that their opinions are no more kindly toward Christians then the Christian folks you described so we all have a lot of work to do.
So your personal experience has registered Jewish negativity toward Christians, but has remained naive about Christian negativity toward Judaism. I wonder why that is.
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"The more something is repeated, the more it becomes an unexamined truth...." (Nicholas Thompson)
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steve7150
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Re: A welcome....

Post by steve7150 » Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:50 pm

I read people's words to discern what is in their hearts (cf. your Luke 6:45), and there are many Christians who routinely and blithely mock and belittle the Torah and Jewish religion. They may not always recognize the natural corollary of their views - that they are making G-d out to have impoverished generations of people with a substandard religion - and that holding to this concept suggests a low estimation of the character of G-d or a low appreciation for the people involved. But many Christians openly express their notions about Jewish religion as burdensome and/or substandard morally and/or rife with meaningless stipulations and/or inadequate as a paradigm for interrelating with G-d.

You may claim naivete about such expressions, if you will. But when you attempt to characterize the commandments as merely superficial, you are in line with a long Christian tradition of belittling Jewish religion, with the aim of making Christianity seem superior.







Sorry if i offended you Emmet , i certainly believe everything you said but i do really believe Judaism was to get us to Christ. You may see that as arrogance or as an attitude of superiority and belittling God in some way and i'm really sorry about that. I respect Judaism and i respect you but i also believe Jesus. This seems like a very personal issue to you and i suspect nothing i say will resolve this to your satisfaction but i do hear what you are saying and will give it more thought.

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kaufmannphillips
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Re: A welcome....

Post by kaufmannphillips » Sun Sep 19, 2010 3:41 pm

Thank you for your kind remark, Steve, and I appreciate your willingness to think over what I've said.
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"The more something is repeated, the more it becomes an unexamined truth...." (Nicholas Thompson)
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kaufmannphillips
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Re: A welcome....

Post by kaufmannphillips » Sun Oct 31, 2010 2:43 pm

MessianicJew wrote:
Good Afternoon, Kaufmannphillips, thank you for your answer to my question about Psalm 22.

I'd like to hear your interpertation of another scripture. Who or what is Isaiah refering to in Chapter 9 verses 1-7? I truly enjoy hearing from you My Friend.
The first part of chapter 9 is a word of encouragement for northern Israel. This comes in the wake of terrible news for northern Israel, viz., that Assyria was going to roll through and the land would be devastated.

The encouraging word is that later on, the outer area of northern Israel will see a new dawn. The Assyrian oppressor will be broken, and its military terror will be purged. The nation will have a remarkable Davidic king, and the text indicates how the king will be spoken of.


I will give close attention here to this latter bit, since it is a cherished snippet for many Christians – “Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace,” as the KJV would have it.

In the first part of the catena, we might instead render “a wonder, a counsellor to a mighty man.” This rendering construes the aleph-lamed as a preposition (“to”), rather than a noun (“God”). This prepositional construction is used at II Samuel 6:8, where the king of Syria counsels his underlings about where to encamp; and at II Chronicles 20:21, where Jehoshaphat counsels the people.

This rendering – “counsellor to a mighty man” – fits the broader context, where Aram and Assyria have been worrisome threats. This king would lead military stalwarts with insight.

In the second part of the verse we have a couple of options. We might sally “a father has appointed a ruler of peace.” This emends the Masoretic text to realign the possessive yod on “my father” to the following word. But if one takes the text as aligned in the MT, then we have “my father ever, a ruler of peace.”

This latter rendering poses little problem from a Jewish perspective, but it does tangle up a bit when it comes to Christian theology (though few Christians may recognize it). After all, many Christians suppose this oracle to be about Jesus. But mainstream Christian theology distinguishes Jesus “the Son” from God “the Father.” And Jesus himself is held to have counselled his followers: “call no one your father upon the earth, for one is your Father – the one who is in heaven.” Certainly Jesus is supposed to have been upon the earth when giving this counsel.


Moving along – the growth of well-being and the Davidic king’s rule will go on and on (“without end” being hyperbolic in other usage, q. v., Ecclesiastes 4:8 & 16; 12:12; Job 22:5).


So who is this king? Good question. Perhaps Josiah is in mind here. Or perhaps we have an unfulfilled prophecy.
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"The more something is repeated, the more it becomes an unexamined truth...." (Nicholas Thompson)
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MessianicJew
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Re: A welcome....

Post by MessianicJew » Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:41 pm

Hello Kaufmann Philips, Robert here again (MessianicJew). I've not been able to post for a long time because I'm just plain busyt at work. Thank you for your interpretaionn of The Isaiah passage. So now let's open up discussion again at the Begining. So what is your interpretation of Genesis 1:26? "And God said, Let us make man in our image after our likness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea," et al. Good to hear from you, Robert.
Isaiah 52:6 "Therefore my people will know my name; therefore in that day they will know that it is I who foretold it. Yes, it is I".

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kaufmannphillips
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Re: A welcome....

Post by kaufmannphillips » Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:25 pm

MessianicJew wrote:
So now let's open up discussion again at the Begining. So what is your interpretation of Genesis 1:26? "And God said, Let us make man in our image after our likness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea," et al.
The verse may be considered together with a handful of similar passages, and they may be construed in a number of ways.

First, the passages:

Gen 1.26-28: "Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.' So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. And God blessed them. And God said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.'" {ESV}

Gen 3.22: "Then the LORD God said, 'Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever--' therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken." {ESV}

Gen 11.5-8: "And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of man had built. And the LORD said, 'Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language, and this is only the beginning of what they will do. And nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them. Come, let us go down and there confuse their language, so that they may not understand one another's speech.' So the LORD dispersed them from there over the face of all the earth, and they left off building the city." {ESV}

Is. 6.1-8: "In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the train of his robe filled the temple. Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one called to another and said: 'Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory!' And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled with smoke. And I said: 'Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!' Then one of the seraphim flew to me, having in his hand a burning coal that he had taken with tongs from the altar. And he touched my mouth and said: 'Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin atoned for.' And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, 'Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?' Then I said, 'Here am I! Send me.'" {ESV}

And then some possible construals:

:arrow: When G-d says “we” and/or “us,” G-d is addressing and/or referring to companions. These might be seraphim and/or archangels and/or angels of the presence and/or other beings that are not commonly imagined;

:arrow: When G-d says “we” and/or “us,” G-d is employing a convention of speech, viz., an honorific plural. There are occasions in the Hebrew bible where it seems like a singular person is being referred to in plural terms, perhaps as an honorific device (q. v., Abraham in Genesis 24; Potiphar in Genesis 39);

:arrow: When G-d says “we” and/or “us,” G-d is articulating an internal dialogue. This would be analogous to when we talk to ourselves as a mental device: e. g., “Well now, how shall we handle this?”; “Let’s try some dynamite, why don’t we?”; “Hmm, that might come back to bite us in the end....” When we articulate different voices in our minds, this is not because we harbor multiple personalities within us, but because we are mentally posturing as an analytical device or for emotional motives.

(Incidentally, the latter case – emotional motivation – could inject some pathos into the accounts. G-d is lonely prior to the creation of humanity, as evidenced by his talking to himself. And on subsequent occasions, when he feels alienated from human companionship, he reverts into self-dialogue.)


So the four passages above could be construed in a variety of ways.

But I am not fundamentally concerned about every minor detail in narrative sections of the Hebrew bible. The narrative texts are not necessarily impeccable. And the four passages above are not essential to the covenant.
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"The more something is repeated, the more it becomes an unexamined truth...." (Nicholas Thompson)
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Jim
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Re: A welcome....

Post by Jim » Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:02 pm

kaufmannphillips wrote:Hi, Robert,

Thank you for your kind response.
MessianicJew wrote:
What I would like to ask is how do you explain Isaiah 53? There are many references to a singular person in the Messiah by using "He" and "Him".
The oracle in Isaiah 53 does not explicitly mention “the Messiah”; rather, it addresses a “servant” (q.v., Isaiah 52:13, 53:11). On this point, it is worth examining the rest of Isaian literature, to see if there are parallels that might inform our understanding.


Here is a less-than-exhaustive list of potential parallels:

(1) The nation of Israel is referred to as a servant (q.v., Isaiah 41:8f., 44:1f., 44:21, 45:4, 48:20).

(2) The prophet himself is referred to as a servant (q.v., Isaiah 20:3, 49:5f.).

(3) An individual, Eliakim ben Hilkiah, is referred to as a servant (q.v., Isaiah 22:20).


And so we may consider a number of possibilities:

(1) The “servant” in Isaiah 53 is the nation of Israel. This would be similar to a political cartoon featuring Uncle Sam as the personification of the United States. In the oracle, the suffering undergone by the nation is theologically requalified: out of the suffering, good will come. Onlookers will experience enlightenment, much as the onlookers at a sacrifice can have a moment of enlightenment as they experience the death of the victim.

One challenge to this possibility would be that, on a couple of occasions, the oracle speaks in positive terms that might seem out of place with reference to the fallen nation (q.v., 53:9 & 11). In verse 11, this might be attributed to the nation’s status after having themselves repented. In verse 9, this might be attributed to a sense that the nation was straightforward in dealings with their oppressor, and a sense that the nation had not fielded a military attack against the oppressor.

(2) The “servant” in Isaiah 53 is the prophet himself. In the oracle, the prophet is encouraged by the prospect that his suffering may eventually lead to good. Though he has been swept along with the currents of history into a place of suffering, onlookers may come to experience enlightenment.

One challenge to this possibility would be that we are unaware of an occasion where this sort of scenario would apply to the prophet Isaiah. But our knowledge of his life is far from comprehensive. Then again, it has been hypothesized that Isaiah is a composite work. If this were accurate, the prophet who gave this oracle might not be Isaiah ben Amoz, but somebody whose life we know even less about.

(3) The “servant” in Isaiah 53 is Eliakim ben Hilkiah. As with the prophet(s), we lack comprehensive knowledge about the life of Eliakim. But there are a few interesting elements to note. On one hand, a previous oracle about Eliakim also touches upon a high-falutin’ burial place, exile, and death (q.v., Isaiah 22:15-25). On another hand, this previous oracle characterizes Eliakim as a “peg,” and this term pops up directly on the heels of chapter 53. Such could be coincidental, but the Hebrew term is used only three times in Isaiah, and it could mark a sense that the “servant” in question was that-previously-mentioned-peg-guy.

One objection to this possibility might be that the parallels of burial place, exile, and death in the previous oracle focus upon Eliakim’s predecessor, and not Eliakim. But we may imagine the great irony if Eliakim – apparently posed as a superior alternative to Shebnah – were to fall into circumstances reminiscent of those in the prophecy about his predecessor. In such a scenario, it might behoove the prophet to address the situation. The oracle in chapter 53, then, might be attempting to theologically mitigate this sort of awkward development.


We may also add a couple of further possibilities:

(4) The “servant” in Isaiah 53 is some other individual, with whom we are unfamiliar. The prophet is ministering to an ancient audience, and we may lack the relevant background information to identify the intended subject for this oracle.

(5) The “servant” in Isaiah 53 is a generic righteous Israelite. The theological issues, then, would be similar to those with the prophet in example (2) above.
MessianicJew wrote:
Two examples: Verse 4 and 5: "Surely he took our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by G-d smitten by him and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed." To me this speaks of a person taking all the sins of man and by his dying he gave us redemption.
Here we enter into some theological difficulty. What is meant by “taking … the sins of man”?

Another prophet made a significant effort to establish that the sinner is the one who dies for their sins – not some other party – and that repentance is the pivot for escaping death (q.v., Ezekiel 18).

One’s survival does not depend upon the death of somebody else, but upon the death of one’s sinful self, through repentance.

Now, if one understands the levitical sacrificial matrix as a didactic/therapeutic exercise – and not some form of blood-payment – then we might understand the thrust of the oracle to be that the “servant” will play the same sort of didactic/therapeutic role as the sacrificial-victim. When people observe the suffering of the servant, they may have the same sort of transformative experience as they might when observing the suffering and death of the animal sacrifice. This sort of experience could contribute to their repentance, and play an operative role in their enduring life.
I know this is an old thread, but wanted to comment on what your wrote briefly. I agree that Isaiah 53 that the suffering servant is the Israel of God, but this brings us into the historical understanding of who Christ Jesus is when it comes to Israel and the many who through Baptism have become part of His Body, the Church. Within an Incarnational aspect Isaiah 53 is not speaking of just one man, it is speaking of the entire people of God, Christ opens the way and those joined to Him also truly become identified as Him, being His body. This is why St. Paul can say that his suffering adds to His that is Christ Jesus suffering. The Israel of God is Christ Jesus who has sanctified/redeemed humanity by becoming man in Him, sanctified creation by joining the created with the uncreated in Him. The blood of Christ is a gift of life, for the blood contains the life, it was not a payment to the Father or anyone else, it was the cost of the reality we live in being under the reign of death. It is His blood and His Body that is given, but that also includes the many which is the Church, united in koinonia of the Eucharist, not just for us, but for the whole of creation. There is a lot more that can be said, but I believe this is a good start.
Remembering our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary, with all the saints, let us commit ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God.

MessianicJew
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Re: A welcome....

Post by MessianicJew » Sat Oct 27, 2012 1:12 pm

"
The Israel of God is Christ Jesus who has sanctified/redeemed humanity by becoming man in Him, sanctified creation by joining the created with the uncreated in Him. The blood of Christ is a gift of life, for the blood contains the life, it was not a payment to the Father or anyone else, it was the cost of the reality we live in being under the reign of death. It is His blood and His Body that is given".
Thank you for this very detailed explanation. From this quote it seems to me that you you believe that Jesus was our Messiah and he died for our sins on the Cross. That is what I believe as well. It's good to have such a thorough knowledge of Scripture. That knowledge helps us to know what we believe so we can be an effective witness to the unsaved. However I don't agree with what you say at: "It was not a payment to the Father or anyone else, it was the cost of the reality we live in being under the reign of death". In the Mosaic Covenant the shedding of blood was a requirement in order to be forgiven of sins. You are right in saying that "the blood contains the life". In Leviticus 17:22 it says "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul". This is also emphasized in Hebrews 11:22. if we look at Hebrews 11:23-28 we can see that Jesus was the blood offering for humanities sins. Hebrews 11:28 says: "so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation". It has been very enjoyable conversating with you. Thank you again for responing after such a long time.
Isaiah 52:6 "Therefore my people will know my name; therefore in that day they will know that it is I who foretold it. Yes, it is I".

Jim
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Re: A welcome....

Post by Jim » Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:38 pm

MessianicJew wrote:"
The Israel of God is Christ Jesus who has sanctified/redeemed humanity by becoming man in Him, sanctified creation by joining the created with the uncreated in Him. The blood of Christ is a gift of life, for the blood contains the life, it was not a payment to the Father or anyone else, it was the cost of the reality we live in being under the reign of death. It is His blood and His Body that is given".
Thank you for this very detailed explanation. From this quote it seems to me that you you believe that Jesus was our Messiah and he died for our sins on the Cross. That is what I believe as well. It's good to have such a thorough knowledge of Scripture. That knowledge helps us to know what we believe so we can be an effective witness to the unsaved. However I don't agree with what you say at: "It was not a payment to the Father or anyone else, it was the cost of the reality we live in being under the reign of death". In the Mosaic Covenant the shedding of blood was a requirement in order to be forgiven of sins. You are right in saying that "the blood contains the life". In Leviticus 17:22 it says "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul". This is also emphasized in Hebrews 11:22. if we look at Hebrews 11:23-28 we can see that Jesus was the blood offering for humanities sins. Hebrews 11:28 says: "so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation". It has been very enjoyable conversating with you. Thank you again for responing after such a long time.
I agree that we needed the blood, but again I do not believe the price was paid to the Father as it is said in the scriptures Psalm 49:7 No one can redeem the life of another or give to God a ransom for them the ransom for a life is costly, no payment is ever enough— , so that being said when Christ died as man it was to pay the price for being under the reign of death though innocent. Death came face to face with the living God and was defeated in Him. He then, not as a payment, offers His blood, to the Father, not to appease an angry Father but as a freely given gift that would be given to us. His blood purifies us, transforms us, we partake of Him through the rememberance of Him, not as a mental reminder or memorial, but a rememberance of participation of Him in His Body and Blood e.g the once forever sacrifice and feast. Sin is an illness, He in His totality, a fully Human and healthy and fully God e.g. Himself we may enter into Him who has overcome death and has no illness, no sin or missing the mark. So, it was not a payment to the Father or to Satan, it was the cost of the grave. Mercy as shown by the mercy seat covering the law has always been greater then the law, it was on the mercy seat he offered His blood, not to buy mercy but because of the mercy of the Lord. Which again, we in praise in thanksgiving offer up the whole of Christ Jesus, and lead by Christ Jesus in Heavenly Worship, which includes the many who have become Christ e.g. His Church all revealed in the symbols of the bread/body and wine/blood as one in Him, in unity of Faith. Sorry for the long delay in responding, but I don't oppose anything the scriptures say it just comes down to understanding, the modern view or the ancient view which I hold to even if I don't necessarily explain it to well. I also haven't even began to dive into the importance of the resurrection of which St. Paul says if Christ isn't risen then we are still in our sins....
Remembering our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary, with all the saints, let us commit ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God.

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