A welcome....

steve7150
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Re: A welcome....

Post by steve7150 » Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:53 pm

Now, if one understands the levitical sacrificial matrix as a didactic/therapeutic exercise – and not some form of blood-payment – then we might understand the thrust of the oracle to be that the “servant” will play the same sort of didactic/therapeutic role as the sacrificial-victim. When people observe the suffering of the servant, they may have the same sort of transformative experience as they might when observing the suffering and death of the animal sacrifice. This sort of experience could contribute to their repentance, and play an operative role in their enduring life.






The tabernacle was referenced in 50 chapters in the Torah plus God gave very detailed specific instructions regarding every aspect of it. I think it is the single most important subject to God re Judaism and it sounds very specific about a blood payment over and over.
I agree there s/b a theraputical aspect in fact i suspect that the whole sacrifice system should
affect the sinner to the extent he would try to avoid sin as much as possible.

MessianicJew
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Re: A welcome....

Post by MessianicJew » Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:13 am

." When people observe the suffering of the servant, they may have the same sort of transformative experience as they might when observing the suffering and death of the animal sacrifice. This sort of experience could contribute to their repentance, and play an operative role in their enduring life."






While I respect your explanation, it seems to me that this type of experience could cause repentance, but I think it's only a temporary effect, so that's why the Jews had to repeat the animal sacrifices continually. If we look at Jeremiah 31:31-34 God is telling us that the Old Covenant (Mosaic Law) will be replaced by a New Covenant. Hebrews 9:11-15 tells us that Christ is the New Covenant.
Isaiah 52:6 "Therefore my people will know my name; therefore in that day they will know that it is I who foretold it. Yes, it is I".

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kaufmannphillips
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Re: A welcome....

Post by kaufmannphillips » Sun Aug 22, 2010 3:06 am

steve7150 wrote:
Just my 2 cents worth. In Duet 27-28 , God said if Isreal were righteous she would be blessed yet this suffering servant was righteous and dies for the sins of others painfully, therefore IMHO "He" is not Israel.
The "righteous"ness of the servant may follow on the heels of the servant's own repentance. Thus the narrative might be: servant is in some respect(s) unrighteous :arrow: servant suffers :arrow: servant repents :idea: servant is righteous :arrow: servant is blessed.

For those who cannot read the Hebrew text, the translation that they use will afford different interpretations. The ESV affords a narrative like the one above more readily than the KJV does (see specifically the variation at verse 10; in Hebrew, the grammar is ambiguous, but the syntax seems to favor the ESV, cf. Isaiah 60:17 & 62:7).
steve7150 wrote:
The tabernacle was referenced in 50 chapters in the Torah plus God gave very detailed specific instructions regarding every aspect of it. I think it is the single most important subject to God re Judaism and it sounds very specific about a blood payment over and over.
There was supposed to be a blood sacrifice on certain occasions. But what was the essential function of blood sacrifice? Was it a sanguinary economic exchange, balancing the ledger for a cosmic blood bank? Was it magic, wielding an ineffable force against divine wrath? Or was it ritual, affording an opportunity for humans to experience enlightenment and/or to express themselves through kinetic poetry?

But if you think the sacrificial system was "the single most important subject to God re Judaism" - then you must not know your Nevi'im very well. Consider I Samuel 15:22 and Hosea 6:6.
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"The more something is repeated, the more it becomes an unexamined truth...." (Nicholas Thompson)
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kaufmannphillips
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Re: A welcome....

Post by kaufmannphillips » Sun Aug 22, 2010 3:44 am

MessianicJew wrote:
While I respect your explanation, it seems to me that this type of experience could cause repentance, but I think it's only a temporary effect, so that's why the Jews had to repeat the animal sacrifices continually.
As opposed to the repentance engendered by Jesus' sacrifice? Christians never succumb to a sin, after having repented of it? Christians have no need to return to the cross, again and again?
MessianicJew wrote:
If we look at Jeremiah 31:31-34 God is telling us that the Old Covenant (Mosaic Law) will be replaced by a New Covenant.
Please identify for me where these verses state that one covenant will be replaced by another.

I will note in passing that the verses immediately preceding vv. 31-34 are parallel to Ezekiel 18. If the "New Covenant" were to be based upon a person dying for others' sins, isn't that a curious juxtaposition?
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"The more something is repeated, the more it becomes an unexamined truth...." (Nicholas Thompson)
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steve7150
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Re: A welcome....

Post by steve7150 » Sun Aug 22, 2010 9:03 am

There was supposed to be a blood sacrifice on certain occasions. But what was the essential function of blood sacrifice? Was it a sanguinary economic exchange, balancing the ledger for a cosmic blood bank? Was it magic, wielding an ineffable force against divine wrath? Or was it ritual, affording an opportunity for humans to experience enlightenment and/or to express themselves through kinetic poetry?

But if you think the sacrificial system was "the single most important subject to God re Judaism" - then you must not know your Nevi'im very well. Consider I Samuel 15:22 and Hosea







I don't claim to know it well but i do know the observant jews were using the sacrificial system up until the destruction of the temple in 70AD when they ran out of animals.

steve7150
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Re: A welcome....

Post by steve7150 » Sun Aug 22, 2010 9:44 am

The "righteous"ness of the servant may follow on the heels of the servant's own repentance. Thus the narrative might be: servant is in some respect(s) unrighteous servant suffers servant repents servant is righteous servant is blessed.

For those who cannot read the Hebrew text, the translation that they use will afford different interpretations. The ESV affords a narrative like the one







Emmet,
I'm sorry i checked the ESV and i don't see where the righteous servant repents, could you quote the verse, thanks.

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kaufmannphillips
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Re: A welcome....

Post by kaufmannphillips » Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:28 am

kaufmannphillips wrote:
But if you think the sacrificial system was "the single most important subject to God re Judaism" - then you must not know your Nevi'im very well. Consider I Samuel 15:22 and Hosea 6:6.

steve7150 wrote:
I don't claim to know it well but i do know the observant jews were using the sacrificial system up until the destruction of the temple in 70AD when they ran out of animals.
And Christians have been baptizing for ~2000 years, but that doesn't make baptism the single most important subject to G-d re Christianity.

And Samuel said,
"Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices,
as in obeying the voice of the Lord?
Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice,
and to listen than the fat of rams.


I Samuel 15:22, ESV


For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice,
the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.


Hosea 6:6, ESV

steve7150 wrote:
I'm sorry i checked the ESV and i don't see where the righteous servant repents, could you quote the verse, thanks.
Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him;
he has put him to grief;
when his soul makes an offering for guilt,
he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.


Isaiah 53:10, ESV {emphasis added}
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"The more something is repeated, the more it becomes an unexamined truth...." (Nicholas Thompson)
========================

steve7150
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Re: A welcome....

Post by steve7150 » Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:46 am

steve7150 wrote:
I'm sorry i checked the ESV and i don't see where the righteous servant repents, could you quote the verse, thanks.

Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him;
he has put him to grief;
when his soul makes an offering for guilt,
he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

Isaiah 53:10, ESV {emphasis added}






Thank you Emmet but i do see an offering for guilt as in substitutionary sacrifice but i don't see anything saying the suffering servant repented for his sins.

steve7150
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Re: A welcome....

Post by steve7150 » Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:49 am

And Christians have been baptizing for ~2000 years, but that doesn't make baptism the single most important subject to G-d re Christianity.

And Samuel said,
"Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices,
as in obeying the voice of the Lord?
Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice,
and to listen than the fat of rams.

I Samuel 15:22, ESV






Yes God does'nt want empty sacrifices but he never ended that system (until Jesus) therefore observant jews carried it on till 70AD.

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kaufmannphillips
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Re: A welcome....

Post by kaufmannphillips » Sun Aug 22, 2010 12:12 pm

kaufmannphillips wrote:
Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him;
he has put him to grief;
when his soul makes an offering for guilt,
he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.


Isaiah 53:10, ESV {emphasis added}

steve7150 wrote:
Thank you Emmet but i do see an offering for guilt as in substitutionary sacrifice but i don't see anything saying the suffering servant repented for his sins.
It's a matter of construal. When the servant "makes an offering for guilt," is he making himself a substitutionary sacrifice, or is he making an offering for his own guilt? (I am quite aware of how Christians will prefer to construe it, of course.)
steve7150 wrote:[/b]
Yes God does'nt want empty sacrifices but he never ended that system (until Jesus) therefore observant jews carried it on till 70AD.
G-d never ended that system, period. But it has never been "the single most important subject to God re Judaism."

Now, sacrifice might be the single most important religious subject in the minds of some Christians. But sacrifice is not paramount - the condition of the heart is paramount.
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"The more something is repeated, the more it becomes an unexamined truth...." (Nicholas Thompson)
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