A welcome....

steve7150
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Re: A welcome....

Post by steve7150 » Sun Aug 22, 2010 12:23 pm

G-d never ended that system, period. But it has never been "the single most important subject to God re Judaism."

Now, it might be that sacrifice is the single most important religious subject in the minds of some Christians. But sacrifice is not paramount - the condition of the heart is paramount.========================





If you go by the amount of space given to a subject, the Tabernacle system appears to me to be the most important subject in Judaism. Of course i respect your right to disagree and that's fine.
Re the condition of the heart, i'm sure that is God's ultimate goal for any of us yet except for the last commandment the 10 Commandments are more about obedience.

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kaufmannphillips
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Re: A welcome....

Post by kaufmannphillips » Mon Aug 23, 2010 12:54 am

steve7150 wrote:
If you go by the amount of space given to a subject, the Tabernacle system appears to me to be the most important subject in Judaism.
If you go by the amount of space given, the Old Testament appears to be more important than the New Testament, Psalms appears to be more important than any of Paul's letters, and Ecclesiastes appears to be more important than the Sermon on the Mount.

steve7150 wrote:
Re the condition of the heart, i'm sure that is God's ultimate goal for any of us yet except for the last commandment the 10 Commandments are more about obedience.
According to your bible, your messiah did not quote any of the Ten when identifying the foremost commandment.

And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, "Which commandment is the [first] of all?"

Jesus answered, "The [first] is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."

And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher. You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other besides him. And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices."

And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God."

And after that no one dared to ask him any more questions.


Mark 12:28-34, ESV {edited; emphasis added}
========================
"The more something is repeated, the more it becomes an unexamined truth...." (Nicholas Thompson)
========================

steve7150
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Re: A welcome....

Post by steve7150 » Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:46 am

steve7150 wrote:
If you go by the amount of space given to a subject, the Tabernacle system appears to me to be the most important subject in Judaism.

If you go by the amount of space given, the Old Testament appears to be more important than the New Testament, Psalms appears to be more important than any of Paul's letters, and Ecclesiastes appears to be more important than the Sermon on the Mount.





As you know Emmet observant jews consider the Torah to be far more important then the rest of the Tanach and the sacrificial system if not the most important issue was right up there.

steve7150
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Re: A welcome....

Post by steve7150 » Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:49 am

steve7150 wrote:
Re the condition of the heart, i'm sure that is God's ultimate goal for any of us yet except for the last commandment the 10 Commandments are more about obedience.

According to your bible, your messiah did not quote any of the Ten when identifying the foremost commandment.








Yes but we were talking about Judaism and God himself wrote the 10 Commandments and only the last relates to the condition of the heart.

MessianicJew
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Re: A welcome....

Post by MessianicJew » Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:30 pm

"Please identify for me where these verses state that one covenant will be replaced by another."

Good to hear from you KaufmannPhillips, in verse 33 this where the Old Covenant will be replaced by the New. "'after that time'" declares the Lord. I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God and they will be my people." Verse 34 says: No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying 'Know the Lord' because they will all know me, from from the least of them to the greatest", declares the Lord. 'For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more". This seems to me that this is God giving a new covenant to His people.
Isaiah 52:6 "Therefore my people will know my name; therefore in that day they will know that it is I who foretold it. Yes, it is I".

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kaufmannphillips
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Re: A welcome....

Post by kaufmannphillips » Wed Aug 25, 2010 1:31 am

steve7150 wrote:
If you go by the amount of space given to a subject, the Tabernacle system appears to me to be the most important subject in Judaism.

kaufmannphillips wrote:
If you go by the amount of space given, the Old Testament appears to be more important than the New Testament, Psalms appears to be more important than any of Paul's letters, and Ecclesiastes appears to be more important than the Sermon on the Mount.

steve7150 wrote:
As you know Emmet observant jews consider the Torah to be far more important then the rest of the Tanach...
Yes, even though the Pentateuch does not take up a larger amount of space than the rest of the Tanakh. ;)

steve7150 wrote:
...and the sacrificial system if not the most important issue was right up there.
The sacrificial system was/is important. But it was/is not the most important issue at hand in Judaism or Israelite religion.

I suspect that your imagining it to be so important is a reflection of your Christian theology. Which would lead into the tangential query: is Jesus' sacrifice the most important subject in Christianity? A worthy question - but one rather beyond the bounds of this "Judaism" sub-forum.

kaufmannphillips wrote:
Now, sacrifice might be the single most important religious subject in the minds of some Christians. But sacrifice is not paramount - the condition of the heart is paramount.

steve7150 wrote:
Re the condition of the heart, i'm sure that is God's ultimate goal for any of us yet except for the last commandment the 10 Commandments are more about obedience.

kaufmannphillips wrote:
According to your bible, your messiah did not quote any of the Ten when identifying the foremost commandment.

steve7150 wrote:
Yes but we were talking about Judaism and God himself wrote the 10 Commandments and only the last relates to the condition of the heart.
If you look at the section I quoted from Mark, it is the scribe who asserts that "to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices."

You could also read the parallel in Luke 10:

And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" He said to him, "What is written in the Law? How do you read it?" And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself." And he said to him, "You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live."

vv. 25-28, ESV

I suppose the scribe in Mark and the lawyer in Luke are supposed to be Jewish, yes? So if you accept Mark and Luke as trustworthy historical sources, then would you not have here Jewish opinions that you might consider relevant?


But anyway - all of the Ten relate to the condition of the heart. And obedience relates to the condition of the heart.
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"The more something is repeated, the more it becomes an unexamined truth...." (Nicholas Thompson)
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kaufmannphillips
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Re: A welcome....

Post by kaufmannphillips » Wed Aug 25, 2010 1:43 am

MessianicJew wrote:
If we look at Jeremiah 31:31-34 God is telling us that the Old Covenant (Mosaic Law) will be replaced by a New Covenant.

kaufmannphillips wrote:
Please identify for me where these verses state that one covenant will be replaced by another.

MessianicJew wrote:
Good to hear from you KaufmannPhillips, in verse 33 this where the Old Covenant will be replaced by the New. "'after that time'" declares the Lord. I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God and they will be my people." Verse 34 says: No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying 'Know the Lord' because they will all know me, from from the least of them to the greatest", declares the Lord. 'For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more". This seems to me that this is God giving a new covenant to His people.
Hello, Robert,

Thank you for your response, but you have not identified where these verses state that the new covenant will replace an older one. The establishment of a new, different covenant does not necessarily replace a previous covenant. The Abrahamic covenant did not replace the Noahic covenant. The Sinaitic covenant did not replace the Abrahamic covenant. The Davidic covenant did not replace the Sinaitic covenant.
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"The more something is repeated, the more it becomes an unexamined truth...." (Nicholas Thompson)
========================

MessianicJew
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Re: A welcome....

Post by MessianicJew » Wed Aug 25, 2010 3:34 pm

I see in your posts KaufmannPhillps, you are refering to The Old Testament . In the Old Testament we see the various Covenants that all come from The first Covenant, established by God through Abraham, and reestablished through Moses, and David. In my opinion We need to take a look at The New Testament, particularly Chapters 9 and 10 of Hebrews. In Hebrews 10:1-18 it refers to Psalm 40: 6-8 and Jeremiah 31: 31-34. It's good to have this discussion, God bless you.
Isaiah 52:6 "Therefore my people will know my name; therefore in that day they will know that it is I who foretold it. Yes, it is I".

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kaufmannphillips
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Re: A welcome....

Post by kaufmannphillips » Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:15 am

MessianicJew wrote:
I see in your posts KaufmannPhillps, you are refering to The Old Testament . In the Old Testament we see the various Covenants that all come from The first Covenant, established by God through Abraham, and reestablished through Moses, and David. In my opinion We need to take a look at The New Testament, particularly Chapters 9 and 10 of Hebrews. In Hebrews 10:1-18 it refers to Psalm 40: 6-8 and Jeremiah 31: 31-34.
You said: "If we look at Jeremiah 31:31-34 God is telling us that the Old Covenant (Mosaic Law) will be replaced by a New Covenant." You cannot establish this from Jeremiah 31:31-34 itself. And so you resort to your New Testament.

But do you really expect me to have the New Testament define my interpretation of Jewish scriptures?

Should I expect you to have the Midrash Rabbah define your interpretation of Christian scriptures? :)
========================
"The more something is repeated, the more it becomes an unexamined truth...." (Nicholas Thompson)
========================

steve7150
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Re: A welcome....

Post by steve7150 » Fri Aug 27, 2010 6:46 am

You said: "If we look at Jeremiah 31:31-34 God is telling us that the Old Covenant (Mosaic Law) will be replaced by a New Covenant." You cannot establish this from Jeremiah 31:31-34 itself. And so you resort to your New Testament.

But do you really expect me to have the New Testament define my interpretation of Jewish scriptures?







But Emmet you did just that in your dialogue with me quoting Mark 12 & Luke 10 to show that "Love the Lord" is the greatest command. Getting back to the 10 Commandments you can read into the first 9 that there is a connection to the heart , but i think it has to be read into them since they as they are simply commands of outward obedience.

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